II Corinthians 4:17

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Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler and I have the privilege of being with Al Henson. And this is Sage Talk.

Al Henson: And Paul, it’s a joy to be here with you again today on Sage Talk. And as always, I like to say with Jesus, we’re in him, he’s in us, and he’s with us. And a part of Sage Talk is for you and I to have a conversation with Jesus, with each other and let others be a part of that conversation.

Al Henson: We’ve been in a lot of our prior podcasts following this road, this thread, this rope of transformation. Why? Because Romans 8:29, the scriptures are very, very clear that God, even before the creation of mankind, knowing that he would, predetermined and desired and passionately that they would become like Christ. And so he, through salvation and the gospel, put Jesus in us that we could have within us the very nature of God and our nature could become one with his nature and we’d become a new creation.

Al Henson: And sometimes the way I say this, Paul, is that we possess Christ. Now, a lot of the Christian walking, is allowing Christ to possess us. Until we are formed more and more into his likeness in his image. That’s transformation. That’s spiritual maturity, that’s growth. That’s God’s purpose. And a part of this that we’re learning is that this is, when we’re on this road, Christ is the way. It is a grace highway. We’re no longer under the law but we’re under grace and grace has provided for us unmerited Jesus himself. An Al Henson definition of grace is a grace is all that Jesus is, made available to all that you need, that I need, that we need. Whatever we need, you’ll find it in Christ because Christ is all and in all, and then he can be through us all.

Al Henson: But today, some of our past ones, we’ve talked about confession and transformation, worship and transformation. Last week we begin to dev some in a conversation about suffering and the role in place of suffering in one’s transformation. We spoke a lot about how do I move in suffering? How do I deal with suffering and some of the vulnerability that we have when we’re suffering and we spoke about that we wanted to have an entire podcast where we could focus some upon the redemptive side of suffering that in the midst of this pain and difficulties and trials and diversity that we go through, there is out of that redeemed precious gold and stone. And so we’re going to talk about that some today.

Al Henson: Three things. There’s a redemptive side personally for you, for I and for each of us as a believer. There’s a personal side. There is a kingdom, advancement, expansion side. And then there’s the ultimate, if one and two right, if one is personally developing and transforming and kingdom is expand, then there is the glory to God. The expanding of his kingdom brings him glory. So let’s jump into this. The redemptive side of suffering.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. And as we do, I’m going to reread a passage of scripture that we also, I believe, lifted up last week. And if you didn’t listen to last week’s broadcast, it would be very important to listen to what we shared last week, tethered with what we’re sharing today, but it’s out of Second Corinthians 4:17, for this light, momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison as we look not at the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen for the things that are seen are transient but the things that are unseen are eternal. You know, Al, you mentioned the redemptive expression of some things we go through personally in suffering at times and I know this is true for both of us, many of our listeners, but when we walk through suffering, there are things that God is redeeming within us that have eternal purposes. And I know that one of the gifts, and I can only say this in retrospect, but one of the gifts that I had particularly as a young man in ministry was a red hot enemy. And in that circumstance, as I look back, there was a time where serving as a lead pastor, it didn’t matter if I said up, he would say down, if I said left, he would say, right.

Al Henson: And all of us, in case someone’s listening who isn’t a pastor and I am too, and I’ve had my Judas Iscariot’s in the ministry, but all of us have someone in our life, a relative, a family member, a boss, someone we’re working with, and they feel like our enemy.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: Go ahead, Paul.

Paul Lawler: As you validate that, we recognize that indeed everybody’s story and experiences are different, but I would share, Al, in retrospect before God is one of the greatest gifts God ever allowed in my life because it taught me to trust in the Lord. It taught me that the fear of man is a snare and that the fear of God actually sets us free from earthly fear. And so as I share that, what comes to mind are a couple of biblical examples that I want to invite our listeners to think about. We are all aware of the famous story of David facing down Goliath, and it’s a great story, but the question that we would ask at a deeper level, did God raise up David to deal with Goliath or did God allow and raise up a Goliath to develop David?

Paul Lawler: The same is true when David had a red hot enemy and he had a red hot enemy in Saul and the same question can be asked. As David is being developed to become a future leader of a theocracy, a man who is indeed after God’s own heart, as the scripture says, did God raise up a David to deal with Saul? Or did God allow and raise up a Saul to develop David? And I believe if we look at it circumspectly that the answer is the latter. That God allowed these things to develop what needed to be developed in the heart of his servant. Now all of our suffering doesn’t necessarily look like that and I realize suffering goes beyond the category of persecution and having a red hot enemy. But what it illustrates that in the sovereignty of God that suffering can indeed have redemptive purposes in how we are developed in depending on God, crying out to God, growing in understanding and experiencing resurrection power in our weakness.

Al Henson: I actually believe that all suffering for the follower of Christ, now a lot of people are suffering and it’s not redemptive but it can be redemptive if we can take a posture of faith in God and in essence the word I’d use, embracing the suffering. See, a lot of people are rejecting it, but embracing it, not in, “God, I’m really glad I’m suffering,” kind of way, but in a sense, “Okay God, you have allowed this or brought this into my life,” or even if it’s an enemy, as you’re saying, that has sinned against you or sinning against God. That you need to, you must embrace that. Even a text comes to mind when he’s talking about with relationships, all that is within you, to live peaceably with all men and Paul, I’m smiling when I’m saying this, but people see me as a kind, gentle shepherd but I have my enemies and Jesus was perfect and he had his enemies.

Al Henson: But then later on it goes on and says, make a place for wrath. And what God is saying there is even in relationships, if someone hates you or they are functioning like an enemy, don’t push it away. Be wise but make a place for that conflict into your life because in essence, it can transform you. That’s the reason why in the scriptures you have illustrations of the gold is purified in the fire. You have these kinds of pictures all through the Bible. Even in Jeremiah, in chapter 18 you have the Potter and the pot. And in that illustration, the Potter is trying to take this old rugged pot and make something beautiful and special out of it but he must mar the pot so that it becomes pliable. And what I find in people’s lives is that no one should look for suffering and we don’t pray for suffering, but if it comes, then embrace it as a gift on God.

Paul Lawler: I just think it’s important that we stop and note what you just said in that, we realize the spirit in which you’re saying it, but rather than running from it, but to embrace it in the sovereignty of God.

Al Henson: And often I’ve said this, if you’re resisting suffering, you’re resisting God.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: Now that takes some faith.

Paul Lawler: And understanding.

Al Henson: And understanding. But for example, if a child is tragically killed in an accident, to push that pain and loss away is to resist what God has allowed to occur. But to embrace it is to say, “Okay, God, I would have never wanted this but it has happened. And we may not understand all of the why’s until we get into eternity. But how can I take this pain and the suffering and let you use it to mold and make my heart and my soul more with your grace and the work of your spirit and your truth, more transformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ?” And so when we talk about the redemptive side of suffering, there is a personal redemptive side to suffering.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely. And so as we look at this dimension of the personal side and how we’re developed through suffering and we talked about, or you referenced, how the Bible refers to being refined as gold by fire. I want to validate that Jesus, Paul, Peter, all validate, all teach, that there are moments of suffering that do enter our lives. The scriptures, they don’t sugar coat this in any way.

Al Henson: You know, A. W. Tozer says that he’s never seen a man and woman that has significantly been used by God, that first was not a marred by God or crushed by God. Now I remember hearing that in my mid 20s and thinking, a loving good God? Tozer, this older man, wise, spiritual man would say that he was crushed by God? And now I understand it may have been not directly by God but God is sovereign and in control. And it could have been many reasons, many things, but God uses those in the believer’s life. And so I say to people in faith, don’t waste suffering. God doesn’t want you to waste suffering. What mother or father would would want their child to suffer unless there is something of greater and eternal value to gain through that suffering and that’s what our heavenly father-

Paul Lawler: Yeah. That’s so wise. Well, we’re also mindful that a part of the redemption or redemptive threat of suffering is that the kingdom often advances through suffering.

Al Henson: And Paul, I’ve seen that walking among the persecuted in the persecuted church, just hundreds and hundreds of stories of how through the suffering of a brother and sister, the kingdom has been expanded. Just going back to the personal, when you are being transformed yourself, obviously you become a greater instrument and tool in the hands of God. Can I take a moment and tell a story?

Paul Lawler: Please do. Please do.

Al Henson: There was this brother in a specific province, he was the first believer and it was in a communist country. And when he came to Christ, he’d come out of darkness and he had light and he was rejoicing and he wanted everybody to know about this light that he’d gotten of the gospel of Christ. So he started sharing and people started listening and the local police and all became concerned about this. And so they threatened him. “You need to stop.” And his wife wondered if he was crazy and he had a few younger children, they wondered too and please just stop, you know? But he wouldn’t, he said, “Oh no, I’ve got to tell others about this.” And he was put in prison for a day or two and let out and he’d keep communicating. And finally they just decided to take him. And he ended up in prison for 15 years. And while he was in prison for 15 years, all of his children grew up. So, he missed the growing up of his children and stories that I can tell about being in stocks and being beaten and electrically shocked and starved and treated like a cruel animal. Like you’d cruelly treat an animal.

Al Henson: Many of the things that he went through but through that process, just before he’d gone in, his wife became a believer. And this was when I met them. He had just gone in and I’d heard the story. And so I went up to encourage his wife and others and we began to disciple her and she began to grow in the Lord and he was in prison. And there’s many stories behind this but she would slip in versus a scripture in the rice, in the sticky rice, so that the guards could, eventually, when they said that she could go see her husband, it was like four or five years before anybody was allowed to visit him. But he began to share Christ in the prisons and he would win them and then they would be released and he would say, “Go see my wife and she will help you to grow in the Lord.” So after the 15 years was over with and he was finally released, in that area now, were 60 something churches and 4,000 believers.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: And one of the things that I have just come to observe, one of the things that authenticates Christianity, not only in persecution, but even in America, if you have a suffering, the Saint that suffers with faith and joy, it authenticates and affirms something must be real. They can’t fake that.

Paul Lawler: So good.

Al Henson: And even with this man, why is he willing to go through such persecution? What is this that causes him to do that? And they would be able to, well, it’s Jesus and the love of God and the potential of eternal life and all the wonderful blessings, the unsearchable riches that come in around Christ. And so we see all over the world. It’s always been said that it’s anytime you see the blood of the saints, the martyrs, then the church will grow out of the blood of the martyrs.

Paul Lawler: Al, we share these anecdotes and examples of the redemptive threads of suffering personally as well as the advancement of the kingdom. I think about Jesus’ words and I have a question I want to ask following this, but Jesus said, blessed are the persecuted. Now again, that’s counterintuitive to us in a natural lens. So, my question is, because I’m thinking about the person who may be listening who perhaps may be suffering in the lens of being persecuted, misunderstood, as a follower of Jesus. When Jesus said that, is the blessing all for this life or is he speaking in regard to our eternal reward? Or is the answer yes?

Al Henson: The answer is yes and yes. You know, Peter was suffering a lot after the Ascension of Christ and he says, “I rejoice even the others, I rejoice that we’ve had the privilege of suffering for Christ.” So, part of that is blessed. He suffered for us. If it’s necessary that we suffer for the expansion of the kingdom, what a way to say, “God, we love you. We’re thankful, thank God.” You know? But another, the blessings, is that if he’s a true follower of Christ, he’s beginning to get the passion of his own heart. And that is that not only is he fruitful but he is being transformed into the image of Christ. Every circumstance in life is the classroom for transformation and for growth and maturity. And so that’s what Jesus meant. Happy as the man. And the other thing is when you’re suffering and you embrace the suffering and trust God, you’ll experience deep presence of God and intimacy with God and in his presence is the fullness of joy.

Paul Lawler: Yes. That’s transformative and it’s the blessing of Christ in suffering.

Al Henson: Let’s transition to that third one.

Paul Lawler: Sure.

Al Henson: The glory of God, the redemptive side, the glory of God. Can I speak to that?

Paul Lawler: Please.

Al Henson: I’ve heard so much about through the books and everything that I’ve read, this matter of God’s glory and surely what we do is for the glory of God. And I kept asking, what does that mean? And I’ve talked with a lot of believers through the years and I never felt everything I was hearing was good but I never felt … And so I will give you my insight that God has given me to his glory. The actual God is glorious. And the word glory means essence. And God is glorious because in his very essence, he’s beautiful. He’s magnificent. In reality, no man has ever seen God. And we can’t understand what I’m about to say but the reason why no human eyes have seen God is to actually see God, we would probably burn up.

Al Henson: His beauty and the holiness of his beauty, his very essence would consume us and consume the wickedness of this world. So glory is essence and everything that we do can bring God glory. If it has his essence in that. And an illustration, sometimes we think of bringing God glory is this great preacher preaching to the thousands and certainly that can and should, or this great singer singing, or this beautiful song and all of that can. But for a person taking the time to wash the feet, to serve the least of these, or taking a child that’s hurting and trying to embrace them and encourage and find a way, that brings God glory because it expresses the essence of the love of God.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: And that’s the reason why I said allow the children to come unto me. One of the things behind that is that child can’t give you anything in return. There’s nothing to gain in helping that child except the joy of helping that child and that expresses the essence. One of the followers of Christ through the decades is Mother Teresa and the world admired her and should. And understand the essence of God when it is actually seen, even the lost can see that. The wicked can see that and the lost and the wicked admired Mother Theresa. Why? Because her labors were labors of love and they expressed, everyone needed, this expresses the essence of God’s kind of love. And you can’t deny that. And this is what it means when we embrace suffering and we’re transformed.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And then that is the redemptive side, personally, and then the kingdom is expanded. That’s the redemptive side. Those two combined together bring God glory because they express in the purest form, I’ve helped, again, the widow of a martyr and that she’s suffering. And yet it’s the purest of form, it seems, of what brings God glory because it’s a matter of faith and love and hope and her response to the death of her husband, his blood being shed, was full of faith, full of love, and full of hope. And that brought glory to a glorious God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Essence.

Paul Lawler: Al, as we suffer personally, we really have opportunity to experience his essence when we depend upon him and as the kingdom advances, as well. But as you’re sharing, I’m thinking about King David actually before he was King and he is suffering. Some scholars say in the setting in Psalm 23, that’s written in the context of Saul pursuing him. Some scholars say it’s when his own son Absalom was pursuing him, but we can only imagine, I mean, he’s in a pickle, he’s in a difficult circumstance. He’s suffering. But what comes out of his heart is this essence of glorifying God. The Lord is my shepherd. That’s all I want. I transliterated the text, but that’s what I want. And the picture that we see is David was being developed in suffering so that he would be equipped to manifest his essence, his glory, when he was in the place of position and spiritual authority that God would entrust to him at some point.

Al Henson: And this is why, Paul, that you hear godly saints talk about the things like the gift of suffering.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Or precious suffering. And just to speak more as a prophet for a moment, if you’re listening, this is why this prosperity doctrine that has swept across our nation and has swept across now the world, it is so false. It’s false. Everything that the enemy brings up or carnal has essences of truth in it but it is false because it teaches people if you love God and walk with God, health and wealth and all of these things are going to be added to you and it’s just not biblical. It’s not biblical. And now there is a biblical doctrine of prosperity for even Psalm one. If we delight in the law of the Lord and meditate there in day and night, then all that he does, all that he does, shall prosper. Moses, God promised that to Joshua, that wherever you go, you shall prosper.

Al Henson: So, that doctrine is in the Bible. What does it mean? We must properly define prosperity. Prosperity is what we’re talking about. Prosperity is being conformed into the image of Jesus. Prosperity is seeing the kingdom of God expanded around us. Prosperity is becoming a creature, a new creation that can express the essence of the very nature of God and be light and soft. This is prosperity.

Paul Lawler: Yes. So good.

Al Henson: And prosperity is being formed in such a manner that beyond this lifetime, when we enter into eternity, we are qualified. We’re qualified to reign with him.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: He says, Peter says, if we suffer with him, we shall reign with him. Now this is prosperity.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: And this is value in the right things. And so these ones who teach this prosperity, wealth, health and the kind of doctrine, are robbing the people of God and are damaging the kingdom. And if you’re listening, if you’re under that kind of minister or preacher, get out.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. It’s that important.

Al Henson: Yeah, it really is. It’s that important.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: But I wanted to say that. I’ll back back down.

Paul Lawler: It is important, what you said, because you are actually circumventing the movement of God in your own life, your own development. If you are under the deception that suffering does not have a redemptive purpose in God through Christ.

Al Henson: That’s Sage Points. Sage Points, suffering is to be embraced and treasured because it has redemptive purposes.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Redemptive purpose one, personal.

Paul Lawler: It is personal.

Al Henson: Redemptive purpose two, is-

Paul Lawler: Advances the kingdom.

Al Henson: And thirdly-

Paul Lawler: It glorifies God by manifesting his essence.

Al Henson: And so finally then, embrace this truth, this beautiful, wonderful truth of scripture and by faith embrace the trials and difficulties and adversity that come into your life and in our first podcast, Christ is with you. Others are with you. His grace is with you and there’s a lot of hope and beauty and glory that comes out of suffering. Jesus, thank you now for this beautiful plan that you had in our lives that even in the midst of a fallen world where suffering would take place, we would not have to suffer in vain, that all of the suffering and trials that we would go through, there would be redemptive purposes and eternal purposes and you’d have in them wonderful, beautiful, eternal plans. I pray you’d help my brother and sister that’s listening, open their eyes and in seeing they may see. Their ears that in hearing, they may hear. In their hearts that they might truly receive the words and truths of God in this matter of suffering. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

The post Episode 20: Suffering: Redemption Through Pain appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Hebrews 4:15

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Paul Lawler: Greetings, this is Paul Lawler. I’m with Al Henson and this is Sage Talk. Al, would you set up our topic for today?

Al Henson: I’d love to. It’s good to be here Paul with you, and most important it’s good to be here with Jesus.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: We really hope that as you and I are having conversations about topics and subjects, it’s with Jesus, and Jesus is having a conversation importantly with us, with others. Dear brother, sister, friend, thanks for listening in. Our thread through our podcasts in these weeks have been for some time now transformation.

Al Henson: It is a thread, because we come to understand in the heart of God and the mind of God and the will of God that our individual transformation, Romans 8:29, that God has, before the foundation of the world, knowing us, determined that we could be made and formed and conformed and transformed into the likeness, into the image of the person of Jesus Christ.

Al Henson: To love like he loves, to see things the way he sees things, to think the way he thinks. Transformation, and we’ve been choosing subjects. A couple of podcasts ago, we had confession. Last week, worship and you got on fire Paul on that one.

Al Henson: This week, part one and then part two, we’re going to deal with the suffering, adversity, trials and its impact and purposes, redemptive purposes in transformation, as well as in the expansion of the kingdom, as well as the glory of God.

Paul Lawler: Now this is such a relevant topic. There’s no life, there’s no listener with us today that suffering has not and will not, said with compassion, touch every life in some way.

Al Henson: Theologically it’s because man has fallen into sin and man is separated from God. Man is being driven by selfishness and greed and lust so much. In the midst of a fallen culture, enslaved in sin, suffering, it’s there. All of us have suffered.

Al Henson: A loss of a loved one, a child, cancer. Paul, I’ve been with brothers and sisters who have been martyred. Some of my Timothy’s have been martyred, and I have seen suffering. With compassion and hope we are rescuing now. I received information just two days ago of a 15 year old girl who had been sexually abused.

Al Henson: Now she’s with a child, and her mother just died. She’s alone. I found her on the street six months pregnant and she’s suffering. Sometimes when we think of suffering … One of the greatest things I see in suffering, Paul, is because of such …

Al Henson: Even in America, as around the world, there’s such a deterioration of the family, because there’s such a deterioration of light and truth, that so many young people are growing up now in a very unhealthy, even abusive, sexually abusive situation, but just unhealthy situation, a broken home.

Al Henson: They’re suffering, because they’re lacking the love God intended them to have. They have experienced a lot of rejection, and not acceptance. They’ve been dishonored, so they feel of no value, of no worth and hopeless. Suffering is just … When we’re speaking of suffering, we talking of suffering in every direction Paul.

Paul Lawler: Pervasive in nature.

Al Henson: Yeah, it’s there. Just a general direction to guide you as a listener to be able to follow us, today we’re going to deal with the, how do I suffer? We’ll try to help you answer the question, how do I suffer? I’m in the middle of it.

Al Henson: Some listener is in the middle of something. This is one of those podcasts that listen, but you need to call a friend. Everyone out there knows somebody who is suffering that will need to hear some of the sage wisdom we might give them today that we’ve learned as we’ve suffered with others and with ourselves.

Al Henson: We’re going to answer the question today, how do I suffer? I’m in the midst of it, and God is not always delivering us just immediately out of suffering, but he walks with us, and how do I suffer? How do I suffer with people that are suffering?

Al Henson: Secondly, we’re going to talk about when you are suffering, you’re extremely vulnerable. We’re going to talk some about vulnerability while you’re suffering. Let’s just start into this Paul, just some conversation you and I with Jesus about how do I suffer?

Paul Lawler: Al, this is a little bit personal, but several times in … Just for the fact that we’ve done life for decades, our family, just as your family, has gone through seasons where health reasons there was deep suffering. We’ve gone through seasons of persecution as followers of Christ.

Paul Lawler: In Western cultures, as you know, Pastors, if you’re taking a biblical stand, you’re going to take some hits. We’ve faced all of that, but I would begin by saying that one of the things that’s been key in suffering is being able to embrace suffering with Jesus, in the presence of Jesus, and to tap into the presence of Jesus in suffering. Would you say some words about that?

Al Henson: Yeah, I would, and I want to tie in a second thing to that, because the conversation. We really want to say three things about how we suffer, and that is you do suffer with Jesus. You can and you do, whether you know it or not, he’s there and you can suffer with others.

Al Henson: Then primarily the thing that enables us and gives us the strength to suffer is with them you’re suffering with unusual hope. When we’re suffering, it seems to be hopeless. How can this have some benefit? It has a redemptive purpose, so you’re suffering, you’re suffering with hope.

Al Henson: Hebrews wants us to know something about suffering with Jesus and who we’re suffering with. We’re not only suffering with God, infinitely powerful, infinitely loving, but he also is a God who can be touched. In Hebrews 4:15 it speaks that we have a high priest.

Al Henson: We don’t have a high priest that cannot be touched. He can be touched with the depths of our feelings of infirmities and our weaknesses and our sufferings, because he was human. He was the God man, and he suffered much in life, as well as upon the cross.

Al Henson: He suffered much, and so Christ is with us, and he can be touched. That means that he can understand and comprehend. I actually believe, because I am in Christ, that not only did he suffer that I understand, but when I’m actually suffering now, he’s feeling my pain.

Paul Lawler: That’s why that passage says he sympathizes with our weaknesses, which it connotates that he’s in it with us. He feels with us.

Al Henson: Yes, yes, and he does. Tying others into that, that’s the reason why being in Christ and in the body of Christ, we have Galatians chapter 6 that would want to teach us, chapter 5 I think it is. Excuse me, chapter 5, bear you one another’s burdens.

Al Henson: Another passage will say when they weep, weep with them, and when they rejoice, rejoice with them. God did not bring sin into the world. Man, Satan and man brought sin into the world and brought suffering upon themselves, but God did not intend us to suffer alone.

Al Henson: He didn’t abandon us. He is with us, so we’re suffering with an understanding Christ who’s all loving and all powerful. We’re also to suffer with others. I do believe this is when we’re willing to be loving and not be so selfish and allow ourselves to step into the pain of others, which I have by the grace of God, I’ve had the opportunity to do as a Pastor.

Al Henson: I’ve helped the waving wife of a martyr. I’ve helped little children in my arms, five and six. “Papa Al, why did God let my daddy die?” We are to suffer with others.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Allowed myself with the spirit to feel what they were feeling at some level, so we don’t suffer alone. Then let’s chat a little bit about that while we’re suffering with Jesus and suffering with one another, then we have hope.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Let’s talk about that a little bit Paul, this hope that we have.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Now I want to touch on something you said as we move to hope. The tendency in the West is for us to be independent and isolated. What you just described, how do we suffer? If I may articulate it in a way that bridges off what you shared, we don’t isolate.

Paul Lawler: That the provision of God in suffering is Jesus himself who sympathizes with our weaknesses and the body of Christ, others.

Al Henson: It’s interesting, we’re going to go to the hope in a moment, but you just spurred on an important thought is that because we are with Jesus and with others and he is God, he not only understands and sympathetic, but he is God, the power of the Holy Spirit to give strength in suffering, to give peace in suffering, to give comfort in suffering along with the hope, or along with the hope and suffering. It’s a mystery, but it’s real.

Al Henson: When we embrace Christ and his eternal purposes and plans in our suffering, we experience the very life of God of joy and peace. With Christians, those that are really intimate with God, you can be actually full of joy and crying at the same time.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. Yeah, and I know that there’s … Al, this may not be for everybody that’s listening, but this is just where my heart is drawn right now. There may be somebody listening right now, and we just want you to know that we know that your pain is real, and we lovingly want to validate that.

Paul Lawler: As we do, we just want to remind you that God knows of your pain, that Jesus does sympathize. He feels the weakness that you’re in, and that I want to encourage you not to journey in isolation. Hear that not just from two men who are advocating from you, but hear that out of the heart of God.

Paul Lawler: Not to isolate in your pain, but get around some others who love and care well.

Al Henson: Let me say to those who are going to want to go to minister to the suffering, a lot of people are hesitant to go, because they’re not sure what to say. Then you have those that are more religious in mind, and they go and they have all these religious statements to say.

Al Henson: That often doesn’t help at all. It’s just something that I’ve learned that God has taught me and I try to practice. I would encourage others to practice. Never underestimate the power of your presence.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: That you’d loved enough and you came to just sit with them while their suffering.

Paul Lawler: So good.

Al Henson: Number two, sitting with the suffering is become an expert at listening. Do not feel the need to give answers, because some of the redemptive work that God is doing in suffering, it’s very hard to really understand. Only God can really understand a part of what he’s doing.

Al Henson: We have one of our Homes of Hope, with compassionate hope we have a young lady that she’s our first rescued one who’s now rescuing others. What she went through in life, watching in a very impoverished, darkened, Godless culture. An alcoholic father pulling a knife and seeing him almost stabbing her mother and kicking them and abusing them.

Al Henson: Then being sexually abused in the fifth, sixth grade, and then labor trafficked at 12. Then sold as a child bride at the age of … Falsified at the age of 16 out of that culture into another culture, and yet she suffered. Through that and all of that, God ultimately brought into a place where Jesus was.

Al Henson: Now she has found Christ, and she has found healing in her own soul. She has come to understand that she started her suffering for the first time. Now she could suffer with Jesus. If you listen to her story, when she testifies and shares a story, you’ll hear that.

Al Henson: I’m thankful for the suffering, because it brought me to Jesus, and for the first time I knew love. Now she’s rescuing others. That’s a part of the redemptive purpose. It’s also a part of the power of the gospel to take that which … Joseph says this. Joseph went through so much in family and a broken family.

Al Henson: Can you imagine having your own brothers trying to start to kill you, because they despise you and then they decide not to and they throw you in a pit. Then they say, “No, let’s sell him.” You’re in slavery and in prison. Ultimately he says, “People meant this for evil, but God had an eternal purpose, an eternal plan and God meant it for good”

Al Henson: Which goes to that third area, not only are we suffering with Jesus and we suffer with others, but we suffer with hope.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Every story of suffering may not end in life. There are times where a cancer diagnosis, it ends with a believer going to be with the Lord.

Al Henson: Going home.

Paul Lawler: Which is why the scripture tells us we don’t grieve as the world grieves, we grieve differently, because we don’t grieve as a people who are without hope. We recognize that there is healing, there is a resurrection, and that there is a new life that we’re promised.

Paul Lawler: “A man who believes in me,” Jesus says, “Will live even if he dies.” We recognize as Christians that we do have a different worldview. We have a reality that we look at that all of life is not defined by what we experience here. We recognize and I’m validating that we do look at all of this differently.

Paul Lawler: Everything’s not defined here, and it’s important. It’s important for that to be said, because we’re mindful there are those listening today that are walking some paths right now.

Al Henson: I was just thinking as you were sharing there, Paul, that the ultimate final power of suffering or evil in the world is death. For us death is not the end. It’s just another door into our greatest hope, which is a place of no sin, a place of no tears, a perfect place with God.

Al Henson: This hope … Our time is going to get away from us. I wanted us, Paul, to go another area. That is not only the question of how do we suffer? We’ve talked some about that. We suffer with Jesus, with others, and we suffer with hope. So much of the trials in life that you go through are going to have an end in this life.

Al Henson: I want to make sure we understand, because Christ can heal. Most trials that I’ve been through, they had a beginning and they had any end as God finished his purposes and plans there. We’re very vulnerable, and we’re very vulnerable in suffering, because when we’re suffering physical pain, emotional pain, mental pain, and the enemy gets involved.

Al Henson: When we talk about vulnerability, the enemy especially we want to talk about. He has three major lies.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: I want to mention those, and we’ll just chat about them briefly, because our time is limited here. Lie one, you sure God is good? How could a good God allow this to happen to you? Two, where is your God now? The lie of abandonment, and then the third lie is, Oh, you deserve this.

Al Henson: Look what you’ve done. Look who you are, look what you’ve done, and certainly some suffering is the consequence of our own sin. Obviously our own disobedience has suffering that goes with it, but often the trials that we’re going through is not a consequence of our own sin. It can be the consequence of someone else’s sin, or just the consequence of living in a fallen world. Chat into that just a moment.

Paul Lawler: Well, first of all, all of us know that those feelings and thoughts are very, very real. They are rooted in both physical weakness, as well as spiritual warfare. In our physical weakness, we’re more vulnerable in we’re vulnerable spiritually.

Paul Lawler: We’re vulnerable emotionally, just because we’re in a weakened state. There is a warfare that comes from our enemy who the scripture describes as an adversary who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. His methodology is deception, to seek, to deceive a believer to believe lies in a vulnerable state.

Paul Lawler: I will go back to what we were sharing in points one and two. For the believer, it’s essential to, in suffering, to look to Jesus and to be in community with other believers, not isolate.

Al Henson: When you said look to Jesus, I was thinking of verse in Hebrews 12:2, “Looking unto Jesus, looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy, that hope, the joy that was set before him, he endured such contradiction of sinners and the cross.” That’s what you’re talking about there.

Paul Lawler: That’s exactly right.

Al Henson: When we’re suffering with Jesus and the enemy’s coming against us with all of these lies, where is God now? Are you sure your God is good? We need to look unto Jesus and get the truth.

Paul Lawler: That’s exactly right. And these lies are very similar to what Jesus encountered even when he was suffering physically in a prolonged fast in the desert. That is the enemy coming and questioning who he was, the validity of who God is. It shouldn’t come as a surprise if the same tactics come at us.

Paul Lawler: It’s important for us to be mindful and discerning what voice we’re hearing. That Jesus, the scripture states, is our advocate, whereas the enemy is our accuser. Being mindful of that makes the difference in discerning whose voice am I really hearing?

Paul Lawler: An accusation is always worded and phrased in a way where it oppresses. It puts a lid on the heart and the mind and diminishes human flourishing. Whereas an advocate is inviting you to come out of the pit. An advocate is for you, not against you.

Paul Lawler: An advocate is the one who bled and died to redeem you. There’s much more we could say about that. To be sensitive to time, it’s really important in a vulnerable place like this to be able to discern the difference between the two voices that can be at play in the mind.

Al Henson: One of those voices is a voice of the father of lies. The other is the voice of the father of all truth, which is Jesus and God himself. A couple of things I want to make sure that you’re not hearing as you’re listening. As you listen to Paul and I, you may be thinking, “Well, where’s the joy in suffering? Where is the peace in suffering?”

Al Henson: You sound like just to be a Christian, it’s just a morbid kind of thing. That’s not what we’re saying. You’re listening to a brother who a lot of people think if you go among the persecuted church, you’re going to get among them and they’re going to hear a lot of why me? Oh me and poor me and whiners.

Al Henson: It’s never been the case with me. Some of the most joyful people in the world are those that I’ve been with that have suffered for the cause of Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: That you really need to listen to the next podcast, because that’s where we’re going to deal with the redemptive side of suffering. The other thing I do want to say, and we’ll spend more time in the next podcast about this, is that there is a dangerous doctrine that’s crossed out …

Al Henson: We’re shipping our dangerous doctrines around the world, and that is the doctrine of prosperity. I do want to say that there is a biblical doctrine of prosperity, but that it’s always Jesus will to heal, and that if you follow God and walk with God, you’re going to be blessed physically in health and financially and all of these things.

Al Henson: My dear brother and sister, that’s just not an accurate understanding of scripture and other ways of God.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: We’re going to talk about next time the redemptive side of suffering. We’re going to talk about what is the biblical teaching of biblical prosperity in relationship to suffering? Paul, let’s just catch our sage points now.

Paul Lawler: Let’s do, and so some of our sage points today are, as we suffer that we do have the opportunity to suffer with Jesus in the presence of Jesus. Secondly, to suffer with others and not to isolate. Then thirdly, as Christians, we do suffer with hope, that it’s not the end of the story.

Al Henson: That when you’re suffering, sage point four, you’re very vulnerable. As you’re vulnerable to darkness, you’re also vulnerable to light. It’s a very sensitive time. A. W. Tozer once said, “When one enters into the trial or adversity of suffering, a window of light from heaven opens up.”

Al Henson: It’s a great time to gain light and understanding of the ways and thoughts of God when we’re suffering. Give a final word and then I’ll close us in prayer.

Paul Lawler: Well, what I’d like to do is just read a familiar passage of scripture very briefly out of 1 Peter 4:12 where the scripture tells us, “Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share in Christ’s sufferings that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

Paul Lawler: “If you were insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the spirit of glory and God rest upon you.” It’s with that in mind that we recognize that just as you said, the prosperity gospel, it is a deceptive expression of the gospel.

Paul Lawler: The scriptures do clearly teach that there are seasons where Christians suffer for many reasons.

Al Henson: I think through the suffering sometimes the word of God is … I want to read one more verse and then we’ll pray. 2 Corinthians in 4:17, Paul who suffered tremendously for Christ, he says, “But our light affliction …” I know he called it light, even though it wasn’t light.

Al Henson: Humanly it wasn’t, he called it light, because in relationship to the redemptive purposes which we’re going to catch in the next podcast, it was light. He says, “Our light affliction, which is but for a moment worketh for us, for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory.”

Al Henson: To our brother, sister listening in that is suffering, there’s something glorious happening there.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Please, something glorious is taking place in your life. Even if you’re a young person listening in and you had a horrific, painful childhood, out of that something … The gold can be got, something glorious can come out of that when you understand God’s redemptive purposes for suffering.

Al Henson: Jesus, spirit of the living God, help brothers and sisters to understand and have your wisdom and your light and your knowledge and the purposes and plans for us in the trials and adversity. While we suffer, help us spirit we pray to understand these matters.

Al Henson: Give peace and comfort and encouragement and hope to our brother or sister that’s listening, that’s actually suffering right now as they’re listening. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

The post Episode 19: Suffering: Does it Come with Instructions? appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Psalm 22:3

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Paul Lawler: Greetings. This is Paul Lawler and I am with my cohost, Al Henson, and this is Sage Talk.

Al Henson: It’s great to be with you, Paul, and every brother, sister that’s listening in, welcome, as we have a conversation. I like to think of this as that we’re having a conversation, Paul, you and I, with Jesus with that brother and sister that has tuned in and so we thank you.

Al Henson: We’ve been taking podcast after podcast and dealing with the general major subject of transformation, and some might ask why. Romans 8:29 says that God has purposed and determined even before the foundations of the earth that He wants us to be conformed to the image or made into the likeness of Jesus Christ. And so this is preeminent in our lives, Paul, of being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Which we’re talking in terms of words that people can get their hearts around and their minds around, and that is that literally we’re walking down a grace highway. We’re no longer under the law, Romans 6, but we’re under grace and grace has made all that Jesus is, unmerited, but He’s made all that Jesus is available to all that we need.

Al Henson: And so if you need peace, there you have peace in Christ. If you need strength to overcome sin, you have the power of resurrection in Christ. If you need forgiveness, you have that in Christ. So grace is all that Jesus is made available to all that I need, as we journey down this grace highway toward transformation.

Al Henson: We’ve been picking a subject or a practice that is important. Last podcast, we had confession. Today we’re going to talk about worship. And it’s such an important subject and important part of how we not only please God and honor God, but transformation taking place in worship.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely. And Al, as we engage in this conversation, there’s so many things that make worship when entered into in the right spirit, vibrant, alive, and life-giving. And so I’d like to begin our conversation in this way around this topic. We become like what we behold.

Al Henson: Wow. You need to say that again, Paul.

Paul Lawler: We become like what we behold.

Al Henson: Give us something in the Bible, in the scriptures that really verifies that. We become…

Paul Lawler: Like what we behold.

Al Henson: Like what we behold.

Paul Lawler: The scriptures say in Psalm 22:3, God inhabits the praises of Israel. He inhabits the praises of His people. And as God, as we praise Him, worship Him, magnify Him, the pattern or principle illustrator out of that passage is something supernatural is stirred, the revelation of God, the presence of God. And Al, I know many times this has been true in your life, mine, probably many of the lives of our listeners, but when I’ve been worshiping God privately or in a corporate setting, that the light of God, the revelation of God, maybe something from scripture will be magnified in my spirit, and I realize that as I’m worshiping God and magnifying God, that there’s a communion taking place with the divine. And in that communion that there is revelation and light.

Paul Lawler: Now, I think one of the ways, and there are many ways to illustrate this, but one of the ways of illustrating this is when we get the opportunities of peering into Heaven and we see some opportunities in Isaiah 6, we see that in Ezekiel, we see that in Revelation 4. But let’s lift out the Isaiah passage for just a moment.

Al Henson: Isaiah 6?

Paul Lawler: Isaiah 6, exactly. Where the cherub and seraphim are before the throne of God, and we’re aware this is happening again when we see into Heaven in Revelation 4, but we see these angelic beings expressing holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty. And, we see this is being repeated over and over and over again. Now on the surface, we can read something like this and peer into the heavenly realm and go, “Is that all that’s happening around the throne of God? Is that redundant? Does that not get old?” But loved ones, we would submit to you to consider that our God is infinite and that our greatest satisfaction is found in Him.

Paul Lawler: And so as these angelic beings are praising God and expressing holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, what’s happening is that they are experiencing an ever increasing and deepening revelation of God as God inhabits the praises that are being expressed around the throne.

Al Henson: It’s interesting, Paul. There was just a first came to my heart in Psalm 16:11. David is coming to the end of his life and he’s summing up some things, and in Psalm 16:11 he says, “In His presence,” and that Psalm 22:3 that you said, it’s praise. It’s worship at the heart level that brings us into the presence of God. And David said, and he’s coming to some conclusions, “In His presence I have found the fullness of joy.”

Paul Lawler: And as you share that, I’ll think about these angelic beings, that the more they worship and praise, the more this all creative God who is infinite fills their being with His presence and revelation in light. Only the more they praise, the more this infinite, all creative, all powerful, majestic God fills their being with revelation and light. It’s perpetual.

Al Henson: We’re talking about transformation, so actually they’re getting into the presence of the transformer.

Paul Lawler: Right. Exactly.

Al Henson: And He transforms them as they’re in His presence.

Paul Lawler: Yes. And so think about this, even as we worship with phrases like kingdom come, will of God be done on earth, which is another way of saying let what’s up there come down here, that when we’re engaged in worship, we’re in synergy with what’s happening in Heaven. And God, based upon this passage in the Psalms, is pouring out transformative power because it is Himself that’s indwelling believers.

Al Henson: I’m thinking of Paul and Philippians 3 that said he was religious and he was trying to move up in the church scene we might say, and then ultimately when he meets Christ on the Damascus road, he says, “I count all of that, all of my efforts, but done that I might know Him.”

Al Henson: And what you’ve just been sharing, it’s actually in the presence of God that light comes and revelation comes and transforming comes and we really, really get to know Him there in His presence, to feel and experience His love. And Isaiah was doing that, and it’s interesting that not only his confession then, Isaiah has a time of confession, but he also has this time of yieldedness and surrender and says he cries out to this Holy God, he hears the heart of God for Israel. And he says, “Here am I. Send me.”

Al Henson: So as we talk about worship today, I’m going to back us back up. I can tell you’re excited about this one, Paul, and I’m glad. You should be, and you listening should be, because we know what it’s like. The joy of being in the presence of God and living and walking in the presence of God. But let’s back up a moment and try to help our listener along. Let’s talk about… Let’s define worship. I hope we’ve got you excited about wanting to know and to experience worship and to worship God. But let’s talk about what it is and what it’s not. Paul, start that conversation.

Paul Lawler: That’s a great question. You know, from a theological standpoint, it really is ascribing worth to the creator of the heavens and the earth. Every star, every galaxy, billions of stars, billions of galaxies, but also the one who has redeemed us through His gospel. But to ascribe Him worth not just out of head knowledge, not just out of awareness of who He is, but out of heart experience and love for who He is with awakened affection.

Al Henson: Yeah. Sometimes the best way to understand something is to understand somewhat of what it’s not, or what it’s just not. When you talk about worship from the heart level, I think that a lot of people think worship is only when we sing. When we sing a song. I even hear people constantly saying, “Okay, we were just obeying God and now we’re going to go in and sing. Now we’re going to go worship God.” Where actually worship is every moment of every day.

Paul Lawler: Romans 12:1 and 2. Keep going.

Al Henson: Every attitude, every action either worships God or dishonors God. Worship is a matter of honoring and so worship is every moment of every day and it starts at the heart level. In America, and we’ve… Because I work among the nations a lot, we have piped this out of American. Wherever I go around the world, all I hear people thinking is, “Let’s start singing so we can worship God.” And I’m thinking, “No, we were just having a conversation about Jesus and I suspect that worshipped God also.”

Al Henson: Or the way I eat my food and or not eat my food either worships God and honors God. So worship is coming from the heart and it’s everything that we do. Let’s settle there for a moment to try and define worship. Let’s define worship at the heart level, Paul, just for a moment. Let’s talk about that.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. I think that for the heart level of worship to be awakened, it must be rooted in devotion. And this is an awkward metaphor, but I know that love for my wife is awakened and deepened through acts of devotion and that is that when I’m kind, even when I don’t feel like it, if I’m kind, if I’m sacrificial in the way that I love my wife, it awakens and stirs my affections for her.

Al Henson: This is what I hear you saying, Paul, is that as a baby is born and a child is born, as we begin to grow, we begin to establish inside of us at a deep level what’s really valuable. And the [inaudible 00:11:30] of this world and all worldliness causes us to value money, to value properties, to value pleasure, to value titles, to value power and positions. And that’s what we’re trained to value.

Al Henson: And actually worship at the heart level comes when slowly those values, we to understand they’re not of great value, and what actually is of value is it’s not just that God is of value, but the ways of God and the things of God and the things that God has created, love and relationships, and the ability to love each other and care for one another and enjoy God and enjoy one another. These are the things that are really, really valuable.

Paul Lawler: That’s said so well. And part of what fuels that, or what fuels that, is the revelation of God through scripture wed with the power of the Holy Spirit operating in the life of a believer. Because I need to get… If I’m going to get warmed in affection for Christ, I need to get near the flame.

Al Henson: So this goes back to this statement. We become what we behold.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes.

Al Henson: And so most naturally in human beings, because we see only with our physical eyes, what we are beholding is what we’re seeing day by day. Parents, you need to really listen to this. Then we would ask ourselves even as parents, how do we shepherd our children into the presence of God? Pastors listen, how do we shepherd our people through the word of God and through music and all? How do we shepherd? Our real goal is not to have beautiful sounding music. Our real goal is not to have this great orator standing to preach. All of those things, nothing wrong with any of that, but all of those are… The main purpose is to bring us in to the presence of God. Because in His presence then we find the fullness of joy, but in His presence we get to know Him. Values begin to change and our love and affections begin to change and this is what worship does and accomplishes.

Paul Lawler: So well said. Now I want to bring up something that I’ve observed both in my own experience and the experience of others related to worship, and I think it was so good for us to take some time to define what worship is, and that is there are times where as believers, and it’s happened to me before as well, we can get in a, shall we say a bad mood or our circumstances or particularly challenging for a season, and in our own mind and heart some people would call it getting in a funk or a cloud, and then it affects our worship negatively, and I’m not merely referring to Sunday gatherings for worship. I mean our heart worship for God. And I’ve got a few things I want to say about that, but I want to ask you first.

Al Henson: I was thinking as you were talking about that, I’m going to go there with our listeners. I’m going to go there is that I just make a statement of observation, that much of what we call worship in our churches in America is only soulish. Now we’re body, we’re soul, and we are spirit. True worship has its foundation in the spirit, and in the spirit then that affects our emotions, which can affect our physical. So in our spirit when we value God as the way, how can we value Him for how much… But we have this awe of God, this value of God in our spirit, then that can affect our emotions. We can be weeping, we can be crying, we can be celebrating, we can…

Al Henson: But if we only see worship is soulish, then as you were saying, emotions can affect that. And I’ve actually seen skilled worship “leaders,” I don’t want to call them worship leaders, but leaders get a crowd into a soulish… what I would call a soulish frenzy. And they really think they have experienced God, but they have not. And again, I’m not saying that we don’t worship God out of our soul, we worship God with all of our heart, all of our soul, and all of our mind in the scriptures. But that originates in the spirit based upon truth and values and what you love and your affection in the spirit, then that pours out in the soul. And then yeah, it may affect you even physically. What you say, you’re lifting your hands, you find David dancing in the streets.

Al Henson: And I’m not opposed to any of that. But if we think just because we get excited and start dancing, that’s worship. It can be very soulish, it can be very natural, very even carnal. But true worship starts in the spirit.

Paul Lawler: Yeah, that’s so well said. And related to that, I have found at times, and this probably goes back when I was in my 30s, and if I’m honest probably early 40s as well. I’m in my late 50s now. But I am mindful based on scripture, is God worthy of worship based upon my mood? He’s worthy to be worshiped and adored because He is God, whether I feel it or I don’t feel it. And what I’ve learned through the years is when I am in a place, what sometimes the mystics call the dark night of the soul. When I’m in that place to to go ahead and worship God, choose to worship God because He’s worthy to be praised and adored.

Paul Lawler: Now, I will also say that there have been many times, not every time, but many times when I have pressed into the worship and magnification of God when I am in a crisis or a circumstance that’s very challenging that that has been a part of the catalyst for breakthrough of revelation or understanding or wisdom in terms of next rights steps as God would lead as I began to praise Him in my circumstance.

Paul Lawler: I think about David at Ziklag. David leads his army out, they come back, all the women and children have been taken. I don’t remember if it was the Philistines or I can’t remember which army that was right now, one of our listeners can let us… Send us an email and remind me. But you may remember that what David did in that moment was so counterintuitive. He goes off by himself and he worships. And as he communes with God, which is completely counterintuitive, his whole army hates him. All their wives and children have been lost, and here David is, who is their leader, their military strategist, and he’s off in a corner worshiping for crying out loud.

Paul Lawler: And when he worships in this negative circumstance, God begins to speak to him because he gets in synergy with the heart of God, the heavenly realm, and as he does, God begins to speak to him and gives him wisdom and leading and light for next steps. And they end up, as you know the story, regaining their wives, their children, everything’s restored to them plus.

Al Henson: Back to the Isaiah 6 passage, that was the same with Isaiah. I have many young people come to me and say, “I just wish I had some clarity on what God wants me to do.” And I say to them, “Get in the presence of God,” because in the presence of God, not only will transformation take place, but it’s in there and it’s just important to hear what I’m about to say, it’s there that you’ll hear the heart of God. The callings of God do not come out of the mind of God. They come out of the heart of God, because God is moved by love and love moves Him into wisdom. But God is love and He’s moved by love, and so the callings of God upon my life to be a pastor was because He loved people and knew that they needed a shepherd and He saw sheep that were scattered. He saw so many false things that were being taught. People hurting and needing to be a shepherd and loved, and that came out of the heart of God.

Al Henson: And now I’m with Compassionate Hope and we’re ministering in Southeast Asia to the least of these, rescuing the vulnerable ones, the trafficked ones, the OSEC children. And that calling did not come out just the mind of God, it came out of the heart of God as I was in the presence of God and I saw God weeping over these children and He had a way for them, the way of the Gospel, the way of love for them. And so you will find this true, young person. If you want guidance, get into the presence of God and there you’ll find the heart of God and God will give you clarity and lead and guide your life there.

Paul Lawler: You know when you share that, Al, it illustrates worship builds faith as well. There’s… When we worship, come into the presence of God, there’s the will of God, the way of God, and the example you just shared, not only have thousands upon thousands of lives been touched through Compassionate Hope to the example you just gave, but out of the presence of God, the faith to move forward, to trust Him to move in these ways is well perpetuated.

Al Henson: So much to talk about. But sage points.

Paul Lawler: Well, we become like what we behold.

Al Henson: I think that’s the number one thing we want you to pull out today is you become by what you behold. Secondly then, with the heart at the heart level, at the spirit level, when you worship, you get the opportunity to be in the presence of God and there you behold God. And that’s where illumination comes and revelation comes by the spirit and the word of God, and you know more of God and of you and of life and all of those things.

Al Henson: So point one, we become what we behold. Secondly, get into the presence of God and there we behold Him, and if we behold Him, then we begin slowly to be transformed into His image.

Paul Lawler: I think another sage point too is the worship of God is not based upon our mood or our circumstances. And David illustrated that well when he was in the worst of circumstances and chose to worship God and magnify Him and God brought light and transformation in that circumstance.

Al Henson: I think the final sage point is that worship is either… Worship is every moment of every day and either we are worshiping God of we’re not. And so the simplest act of washing someone’s feet is a sweet act of worship to God. The giving of a gift is an act of worship. The singing of a song, the act of obedience. Even if we have sinned, which didn’t worship God, and we repent and we confess our sin, that is an act of worship. Repentance is an act of worship to God. Paul, would you close us out in prayer?

Paul Lawler: It would be an honor. Let’s pray together.

Paul Lawler: Father, we recognize there is nothing higher than you. If there were, you would have an idol, but there is nothing higher than you. And so God, we pray for every listener today. Lord, ignite fresh, life-giving understandings of worship, the transformation that comes as we magnify you, as you inhabit our praises. As we become like the one we behold, God, ignite worship in us that’s rooted not in our moods and circumstances, but in a way that transcends all temporal earthly reality, whereby we do indeed join the heavenly realm in bringing to you eternal praise and glory. And we pray it in the strong and eternal name of Jesus. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen.

The post Episode 18: Worship: We Become Like What We Behold appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

1 John 1:9   James 5:16 

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler and I’m delighted to be with my brother Al Henson today and this is Sage Talk.

Al Henson: And Paul, it’s a great joy to be here and if you’ve been listening to the Sage Talk broadcast with us or podcast with us, you’ve been noticing a trend, a thread, a rope that we’ve been tying everything into that we could entitle your growth, your transformation as a brother or sister, and we’re going to continue that theme. In some of our podcasts, we’ve talked about walking on the grace highway, which is we’re under grace. We’re no longer under law, we’re under the grace of God and grace has provided for us unmerited, all that Jesus is, available to all that we need.

Al Henson: I want to say that one again. Grace is all that Jesus is made available to all that you and I need. And on this highway, God has made Himself available to all that we need to be transformed, and perhaps the preeminent purpose of God in our lives and the preeminent passion of God that should be in our lives, Romans 8:29, “That we would be conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ.” So we’re going to be taking up topics around the subject of transformation on the grace highway.

Paul Lawler: So Al, as we do that today, we have the delight of sharing with our listeners, another one of the keys of our own transformation in Christ, and one of these keys or the key that we’re looking at today is the key of confession of sin. And there are three ways we want, or primary ways we want to spend some time talking about this today. First, what is confession of sin, based on 1 John 1:9? Secondly, when James tells us to confess our sins to one another, how does this relate to our transformation? How is this significant for the believer? Then thirdly, what is the fruit that this produces in regard to our transformation? So we’re going to engage in conversation around these things.

Al Henson: Yeah. Confession, biblically, spiritually, practically, experientially is such a vital, critical part of one’s spiritual life and transformation. So let’s just start Paul and talk a few minutes about what is confession? What does it mean? The actual ward, biblically, the word confess, you mentioned 1 John 1:9, but if we confess our sins, the word confess means to agree. Biblically, it means to agree with God. Now, it’s really important Paul, I’ve learned even when it comes to my sin, I need to see my sin from God’s perspective. What has it done to God? What has it done to myself? What has it done to others? And I need to understand seeing and agree with God about my sin, and one of the great problems of pride is not then willingness to take ownership for our mistakes and our weaknesses and our sin.

Al Henson: So confession is to agree with God, but to agree with God about our sin, to agree with God about how He looks at our sin, to agree with God about who He is and what He’s done on the cross in Calvary, to forgive us of our sin and the grace that He’s providing not only to forgive us of our sin. Romans come to my mind when he says, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? We’re under grace,” and what God has given us that we don’t have to continue in sin, that we can find victory over sin. Then at the same time because Satan comes into this.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: The accuser of the brethren, when we’re beginning to see our weaknesses and our faults, to also agree with God that there is no condemnation. There’s conviction, there’s wrong, but to agree with God that there’s hope not only in transformation, but to agree with God that even though I have sinned, it didn’t change this nature that God gave me, this righteous Holy nature that God has given me, in the person of Jesus Christ. So confession is a full agreement with God even in the times of repentance and remorse.

Paul Lawler: Al, as you share that, in our coming into agreement with God, I want to lift up something that I’ve encountered many times as a pastor, primarily one-on-one, sitting with a believer, struggling, and seeking patterns of confession of sin, a statement’s made like this from time to time. “I believe God can forgive me. I just can’t forgive myself.” And I believe that many of the things that you’ve just shared speak to the heart of what’s tripping that believer up, as they allow a subtle form of pride to creep up into the forefront of the heart, and to take the place of God in expressing forgiveness as confession is entered into.

Al Henson: Yeah.

Paul Lawler: So would you speak to that?

Al Henson: Yeah, the way I put that, I’ve seen that a lot in my own life as well as in the lives of others, that it’s hard to receive the forgiveness of God and what I have come to understand is if I am unwilling, if I don’t receive the forgiveness of God, I actually have taken the place of God in my own life. I have said, “I don’t deserve it,” or, “Not me,” and that’s God-like kind of thinking. God says, “You do. I love you. You do because of who I’ve created you to be. You deserve to be forgiven. Not only you need to be, I want to forgive you and you deserve to be forgiven and I want you to be forgiven because I want you to walk on in peace, but I also want you to grow and mature and move forward.”

Al Henson: An interesting thing has taken place in my life when it comes to confession Paul, and that is that I used to not like that place. Now I love it. And brother and sister, you may be listening in and you may not fully understand that, but in times of confession, there’s such an intimacy with God because in that kind of humility and that place of need, and that place of openness and vulnerability, the waters of the spirit of God flows in into the midst of that. And I know even as a dad, I have children and grandkids, and when I’ve disciplined them in love, some of the most intimate moments that I’ve had in their lives is after the discipline, because that wall that was between us, that intimacy that came, and this is why it’s so vital into transformation.

Al Henson: It’s not the confession that transforms us. It is the confession that brings us into the presence of God and the truth of God and the life of God, and God is in his word and his spirit is what’s transforming us, but this kind of confession gets us in. The other part of the reason why I enjoy it is because it’s in times of confession, now I used to have my greatest times of embracing the accusations of the enemy. So now I’ve come more and more and grown some to not listen to that condemnation and accusation.

Al Henson: I remember Paul, there’d be times that I felt like I needed to sort of mourn for four or five days, so that I prove how sorry I am about what I’ve done. Sometimes it’s okay, we do need to remember and grieve over our sin for some time, but I did it more because I felt like I earned the right, more the right to be forgiven. But now, there’s not a sweeter time, when I’m affirmed by God. That’s the opposite of the accusations. I’m affirmed of His love, affirmed of who He’s made me to be and wants me to be. It’s such a beautiful time of intimacy with God and in confession.

Paul Lawler: A part of coming into agreement with God is believing Him. If we confess our sins, He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Al Henson: So let’s go now and back to one of these main points which we’re wanting to make today. Confession brings transformation. We’ve talked about what confession is, and we’ve even gone into confession with God. Paul, let’s talk a little bit about the James 5 passage, another realm of confession is with each other.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative). James says this in James 5:16, “Therefore, confess your sins to another. Pray for one another so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.” Now, we’re aware that, to many people that’s a pattern they may never have entered into, and I’ve witnessed this many times as a pastor where we maybe teach on this passage or share in a small group with believers and this is new to them.

Paul Lawler: Someone once said this, “We’re only as sick as our secrets,” and that has great connotation and meaning for the believer, that when we’re given this instruction in the book of James, that one of the ways that a believer matures and is transformed is when he or she has a close, I call it band of brothers or band of sisters, perhaps in some discipleship group or discipleship band where there is a level of Christ centered, Holy Spirit empowered trust and ability to be transparent with our souls, in a way where we can be honest with one another around our own sin, our vulnerabilities.

Paul Lawler: Al, I’ve been journeying with brothers for decades, one of which I went to seminary with, where we get together several times a year, and we do this. In fact, I believe it’s one of the reasons by God’s grace, I’ve been able to go the long haul in ministry is by keeping my soul fresh through, not only confession of sin before God, but confession of sin in an atmosphere with brothers.

Al Henson: And I think this Paul is what brings about a greater work of God, a greater evidence that God is among us. One of the things to clarify here, this James 5 text truly does speak of the power of God, he really speaks to the power of healing here. Not only healing us from sin, but even physical healing that can take place in this kind of context, and I think a part of that is so many I think body sicknesses come from soul sicknesses and spirits sicknesses, and it’s the soul and spirit that’s finding healing, then also it brings health even to the physical body.

Al Henson: It’s always important to make sure that our confessions are with trustworthy people. So the appropriate people at the appropriate time and saying the appropriate things, because sometimes I’ve heard someone confessing and mostly I think, are you confessing your sins or someone else’s? Or are you wanting me just to agree with you that they were mostly wrong and you were a little bit wrong. Confession is really about you, and you and God.

Al Henson: I remember Paul when I was in seminary, I got a little vulnerable here and that as a young man, I had struggled some with pornography and I was in seminary and I was still … Now I thought I’ve surrendered to preach the Gospel, now I will have victory over this, and I was struggling with having victory and I thought, “How can I be a pastor and a preacher and a minister with this kind of struggle,” and like you said, “These secrets.” And I had been studying James in chapter five about confessing our faults one to another and praying one for another that you may be healed, and I just took a risk.

Al Henson: There was a group of us brothers that were meeting once or twice a week in the lunch hour, instead of eating lunch, we’d meet to pray. And one day I just said to them, “I have a personal request,” and I opened up and just shared with them my struggle with this area of my life, in pornography and an interesting thing happened. I thought I might be rejected. Love got deeper, the presence of God got deeper. The other brothers began to open up and to my surprise, they were all struggling too. This is a real struggle among men, and I have experienced significant victories through the years now, 40, 43 years later, significant victories.

Al Henson: I’m so grateful to God for these victories, but a lot of that came around, the honest openness with brothers and the grace of God, not only coming from God Himself, but through the brothers as we prayed for one another and sought one another, and here’s the testimony. In my seminar class, where 20 something young men who wanted to be pastors, there’s only five remaining in ministry and those five, they were in a group meeting with me.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: Yeah. It’s the power and even the benefit, and it is God … Really James 5 it’s not a recommendation. It really is a commandment. It’s a gentle commandment. Confess your faults one to another, warm, gentle, confess your faults one to another, that you might pray for one another and that you might be healed, and I was healed.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: It was a process, but I was healed.

Paul Lawler: You know when we keep things private, when God in His love has offered us this opportunity of not only confession with Him, but confession with sisters and brothers, knowing that we have an enemy that comes to steal, kill and destroy and bond us up in fear and shame. One of the things that I have found when I confess my sin to brothers is that I’m liberated. We’re liberated from shame, we’re liberated from isolation. We are liberated into experiencing the body of Christ and Christ.

Al Henson: I just have to say something.

Paul Lawler: His person-

Al Henson: It’s just something, I know I’m interrupting.

Paul Lawler: It’s okay.

Al Henson: I just got to say this, Paul. I think the greatest question of every human being’s soul is not am I loved, it’s am I lovable, and it’s in confession one with another. When we bear out our weaknesses and our ugly and then a brother loves us and we say, “Oh, I am loved. Maybe I am lovable. Maybe I’m not as ugly as I thought. I am somebody that can be loved even in my failures and my weaknesses,” and that’s one of the greatest. It is true. We’re all lovable in the sense, especially in Christ, we’re lovable, but to experience that, really affirms that truth, that not only am I loved, but I’m lovable.

Paul Lawler: And now you’ve beautifully set up what confession to God and when we are in a safe place among brothers or sisters to confess our sins to one another, what it’s unto, that there’s a freeing from shame, guilt and a liberation, but that liberation is unto a greater degree of healing, fruit bearing, transformation into the image of Jesus.

Al Henson: Actually as a pastor, I have found, you have a lot of experiences and I kept asking the question why in some of these 12 step programs that I’m seeing some real transformation and salvation. Now with some, they just talk about God and I wouldn’t recommend that. I think if you’re going to get in a group and that kind of program, God is Jesus and we need to speak about Jesus and the Gospel and the power of the Gospel, Romans 1 and 18, “For the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.” But I think one of the things that the reason why these things were so helping those who were in bondage and addictions was because of this confession. Not only their confession of their need of God, but the confession of their weaknesses and their failures. And they found this expression of God’s spirit working among them in love and in power and they found freedom and healing.

Al Henson: So practically speaking to any brother or sister that’s listening, practice confession, but you do need to find some brothers and sisters that you can trust and be vulnerable with and pray together, because of the James 5 texts. It says, if we confess our faults to one another and pray for one another, then we shall be healed.

Paul Lawler: You know, Al, obviously, we’re all Protestants, but I’m aware that in the Catholic church, just their pattern of confession, that it’s really based on this passage in James that we’re looking at. I’m not trying to say that that’s prescriptive, the Protestant church needs to adopt that methodology, but I think it’s important for we realize, for our listeners to realize that this is not an anomaly in Christian practice or Christian history. That this is something the saints, those who’ve matured and been transformed by Christ, really have been engaged in practicing for hundreds of years.

Al Henson: Yes, without doubt. Wherever I have seen the movements of God taking place, you see this kind of movement. Actually, most of the movements of God that I have seen, even in larger crowds, have been when the preacher stops preaching and someone in brokenness and humility comes and people perceive it. And then sometimes I’ve seen where they open up a microphone and people begin to share. They’re sharing not only the brokenness and the weakness, but the peace that they’re getting, and the forgiveness that they’re receiving and the joy.

Al Henson: I think that’s where 1 Corinthians 14 comes in and says, you may want to speak in tongues, but I would rather you prophesize, which means to speak forth the stories of God and the truth of God, and then everyone among you will know that God is there. Even the lost will come in and know that God is present and there’s amazing power and presence of God in confession just with God alone, but confession with other brothers and sisters together with God, it’s amazing presence and power of God comes into this and then it’s God who begins healing and transforming us.

Paul Lawler: Amen, amen. So Al, our Sage Points based upon what we’ve shared today, one is the power of confession before God, and to recognize that when we’re confessing, we’re coming into agreement with God, not only an agreement that we’ve committed a sin and He forgives, but agreement in the context of all that God is.

Al Henson: And I think Sage Point too is that a part of confession is the confession that God loves us and the confession that I have a God who died for me, and who has bore my sins, the confession that He can forgive me. And if I might say this Paul, in confession, when I come to God, here’s what I hear. “Son. Yes, you’re wrong and you shouldn’t have done this and I forgive you, but I want you to know, son, this is not who you are. What you just did is not who you are. This is not who I’ve made you to be and who I want you to become. So son, come to me and I will give you the grace and the wisdom to begin to live out who you really are.”

Al Henson: So that confession is that not only the negative, what I say, the negative part, confessing the weakness, the fault, the sin, but the positive part of the confession as to who God is and who I am and who He intends me to be with Him out into the future. Such a positive part of confession.

Paul Lawler: That’s beautiful. The image that comes to mind is that it’s not, “You’ve sinned, go sit in the corner.” It’s, “You’ve sinned. Now come crawl in My lap and see Me for who I am and let’s make this right.”

Al Henson: And the third Sage Point is the realm of confession. Confession with you and God alone, but confession with other brothers and sisters as God would lead and guide.

Paul Lawler: And the fruit that it all produces, that it’s unto a greater degree of light and revelation, healing and restoration.

Al Henson: I was with a young boy this Sunday, his mother had brought him. I did talk this Sunday in church with two of us actually bringing the message together, and so this young boy had gone to one of the other shepherds. A mother had brought him, and I could tell walking away that mom wasn’t satisfied and the boy was deeply irritated. And I thought, whatever mom wants to take place here, whatever God wants to take place here is not working. I knew the moms since she was a little child, and I knew this was her stepson.

Al Henson: A little bit of his story is, is that his father died when he was six and his mother married the father. So she was a stepmother and then she remarried and he had a stepfather, and a year or so ago, stepdad, his stepfather died. So he’s experienced the death of two men in his life, and he didn’t know how to deal with this hurt, this trauma, this pain, and in his mind, where’s God?

Al Henson: “You’re setting your teaching or speaking about this wonderful, good God and He doesn’t seem so good to me.” And I knew all of this, so I just called his name out and said, “Come here,” and he didn’t want to come. I said, “No, you know, come here.” He said, “I’m a side mean.” I put my arm around him on his shoulder, and I said, “I know you think I’m crazy. I’m just a crazy old man.” He smiled a little and he said, “No, you’re okay.” And I said, “No, be honest. Confess to me, just be honest with me.” He said, “Yeah, you strike me as a lot crazy.” And I said, “Okay, that’s good.” And then I just repeated what I knew about his two dads and I said, “I can’t imagine what you’re feeling, the hurt, the pain.”

Al Henson: And then I said, “I’m going to give you some advice.” I said, “I want you to go home and get alone in your bedroom, close the door, and I want you to sit out on the floor, just get comfortable. And I want you to look up and say, God, I am so angry at You. I don’t understand You God. They say, You’re good. How could a good God let this happen to me? Just talk to God. Get honest with God, that’s confession, and he can agree.” God knows he’s angry at Him. God knows he doesn’t understand God. And I said, “Just tell Him. Let it all out. Tell Him.” And I’m about halfway through this and this young man starts weeping, and people around are watching, what’s this?

Al Henson: I just went heart to heart with him, and it was interesting the power, even him considering the possibility that he could make that kind of confession before God.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: And mom sitting over there weeping, and now we’re having a Holy moment. So the results, the power, the healing, the affirmation that can come, the forgiveness that can come, the peace that can come, the transformation that can come in this tool, we might say, this call of God to walk His people of confession. So I’ve learned actually that a true transforming one is walking in a constant state of repentance, turning away from turning onto in a constant state of confession, because I may in an hour walk into an unusual situation, or get a call of a trial. I may walk into a fire and I may need to confess at that moment, “Lord, I’m struggling. This trial wants to flip me off of one of my leg, my feet out from under me.” So confession is just that agreeing with God about my weaknesses, my need, casting all my cares upon Him for He cares for me.

Paul Lawler: All that is strong and it reveals how deeply God is our safe place.

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: So with those things in mind, would you close us out in prayer on this day?

Al Henson: I would. Father, we’re always aware that a brother or sister, older, younger, that are listening and you knew they would be listening and you’re speaking. I pray that I love the word that brother Paul just said, “With You God is a safe place.” And with You God is a grace place. With You God is a place of forgiveness and a place of power and a place of healing. And I pray my brother and sister there would not only make confession a practice of life, but even now, they might find a moment where they just stop, pull off the side of the road or wherever they are, and just stop and think about what do I need to confess to God now? What do I need to affirm? What weakness do I need to just be open about? What emotions or feelings or thoughts I’m having about God that maybe are wrong or right about me? What confession do I need to make?

Al Henson: Then I pray. I pray that every brother and sister could find safe people, grace people, spiritually minded people that they could have conversations with about their sins, their failures, their weaknesses, and vulnerability, because God, we know that Your spirit will move deeply into the midst of that. So spirit of the living God now, touch every brother and sister where they are as they’re listening, and help them and guide them. In Jesus name. Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 17: Confession Opens the Door to Transformation appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Isaiah 9:6   Romans 5:1

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Al. I’m so thankful to be able to have the conversation today that we’re going to have and to talk about the peace of God, the peace of Jesus Christ. I remember when I came to Christ, one of the things that I was just amazed and just in awe of was the peace, the absolute peace that filled my heart. And you grow jealous for other people to being to know this peace, and so it’s this topic today of peace in the heart, the mind, the soul that God offers to people that we have the privilege of engaging in conversation around, and hopeful it’ll be helpful to those listening today as well.

Al Henson: Me too, Paul. I’m just glad to be with you, with Jesus, and with that brother, that sister, young or old that God has directed to listen to the podcast today. And our hearts for Sage Talk is and continues to be that God may use something that we say to help bring someone closer to Christ, to spiritual growth, to development, to spiritual fatherhood, to transformation. And last week we were taking a few weeks here and bringing some of the names that God has given himself and taking those names, and what do they say to us about God, and about us and our need. And then how do we experience that aspect of God. Last week was Emmanuel, God with us, and this week Christ that is with us is also the Prince of Peace. And so we’re going to be speaking about peace today and sharing just out of our lives and our knowledge of God and the scriptures, some thoughts that we hope and believe that will be helpful to those brothers and sisters that that are listening in.
As you’re listening, one of our prayers is that as you’re listening and you hear something that that may be you have a friend or a brother or sister that you think this would benefit. This is God’s work. This is God’s podcast through us, and we’re just simple servants of the Lord. And so we’d encourage you. You know, our prayer is God use this to speak to someone who might share it with someone else that God might speak to, who might share it with someone else that God might speak to. And so, you know, this is the way of the kingdom. It’s organic. It’s person to person as God is working and moving in and changing lives.

Paul Lawler: Al, as a pastor, I’ve noticed through the years that a hunger for peace is not something restricted to one particular age group. I notice this hunger among senior citizens, people at midlife. I notice this hunger among young people. But it’s certainly relevant for a time like this in the hearts of so many people.

Al Henson: In our last podcast, we talked about the work of sin and how that sin, mars and damages the soul, and where God created man and woman to be people of peace, and to have peace with God and with each other, Adam and Eve and God in the garden. Peace. But sin entered into that and when sin entered and peace was gone. You find them afraid and even ashamed. And when the Bible mentions that they realized they were naked, that means they began to have feelings of condemnation and shame and fear. They were trying to hide themselves from God.
And in our culture today where the family unit is lessening and more families are broken and are not functioning, dysfunctional families. And there’s so much anger and bitterness. Then sin is running more rampant in its work of fear and shame. And so we have a lot of anxiousness. But this is not new even to the followers of Jesus. I think about in Matthew in chapter six, the disciples, they were worried and full of anxiousness. They were worried. They were following Jesus, and where were they going to get food to eat, and where were they going to get close to wear?
And Jesus spoke to them and said, don’t you know that I, the Prince of Peace, God, I take care of the lilies of the field and look how I array them. And I take care of the ravens and I feed them. And how much more do I love you, and how much more do I care for you? And he said, don’t worry. Why are you thinking about these things and so worried about these things? Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all of these things will be added unto you.
So today we’re going to talk some about the Prince of Peace and what that actually means, and how then to find peace and bring peace into our own lives that will also strengthen, and our own transformation and growth and development.

Paul Lawler: That’s so good. And you know, we cited this a moment ago, but really peace is a person and his name is Jesus. And you know if you’ve ever read Romans five you recognize that in order to know the peace of God, we first must be at peace with God. And so to be at peace with God certainly begins with the gift of the gospel.

Al Henson: I want to make sure that brothers, sisters, you’re listening, that you heard what Paul said. We have the potential and the possibilities of experiencing the conditions of peace, because there is first the person of peace. And what I have found in listening to many messages and teaching is that people are trying to find the condition of peace, and they can’t find the condition of peace without first finding the person of peace. And as you’ve quoted Romans in chapter five, if you’re going to find the person of peace, I’d like to put that in two different categories. One is finding the person of peace in salvation, that sin has separated us from God and through the power of the gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, then one can be reconciled back to God. In Romans five, one, we can have peace that comes by faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. So that’s peace. That’s that eternal peace with God about our eternity and the forgiveness of sin.
But the second is this daily peace. Philippians, in chapter four will speak about that. Be anxious for nothing. And I’m saying, Lord, that’s really hard in our culture. Be anxious for nothing. I find many, many things that I am tempted to be anxious about. But he says, be anxious for nothing but in everything by prayer and supplication, let your request be made known to God and then the peace of God. There it goes. It’s not your peace, but how do I experience Christ, the Prince of Peace? The peace of God is God himself. Peace with God.
And I’d like for us, Paul, if we could just to talk a little bit about… It’s my understanding when I think of what we’re sharing in the scriptures and my experiences with God, that peace has so much to do with relationships, and that through the gospel we not only can be at peace with God relationally, but through the gospel we have the ability to be at peace one with another. So I think it’s really important today that brother and sister be not thinking as much about the emotions of peace, or the attitudes of peace, or the characteristics of peace, but how do I experience the Prince of Peace that I might then through him be reconciled to God and then be reconciled one to another.

Paul Lawler: That’s so good. You know, when you share that, Al, one of the things that comes to mind is I’ve watched people who are brand new believers when they’ve experienced the mercy of God, the grace of God, and they thereby experience his peace through the power of the Holy spirit. I’ve watched new believers many times immediately reach out to people they’ve wounded and make peace with them. I was wrong. I am sorry, will you forgive me? And just as they’ve received mercy, began to extend mercy to others and to labor for Christ centered reconciliation. And the point is, is that the peace that they began to labor for is enduring because it’s both vertical and horizontal, and it’s 360 degrees in nature. And it’s a true peace. It’s not a peace that glosses things over, but it’s a peace that endures because has roots in Christ and it has roots in valuing people and relationships.

Al Henson: And I think, Paul, that to make this very practical, we have to think in terms of what stood between us and God? And what also stands between us and our fellow human being, or our mate, or our children? And the gospel is the power to bring down what stands between us, you know between us and God was our sin and the things that we had done. And so it took a tremendous measure of repentance, or humility and faith combined together to trust in God and to come to God and say, God, I agree with you. There’s this wall between us, and God, you didn’t build the wall. I built the wall. And I think the same thing until peace came. When we come to God and the gospel takes that wall down and cleanses us and forgives us and God can embrace us and we can embrace him. We’re reconciled and have peace.
The same thing with human beings. The same principle. I was with a brother in the last few months, came to know him. He’s come to know Christ in the latter part of his life. I think maybe he’s in his seventies, early seventies, around 70. And he came to me and he said, help me. You could just sense a peace that he has in his life, with him and God. But he said, my children, I kept them out of church and I’ve made many mistakes, and now I’m trying to tell them a little bit about Jesus, and they don’t want to hear anything I got to say about Christ. And so I just listened for a while and you could tell the sincerity of this brother’s heart. And he asked me, he said, can you pray with me for my children? I said, yes, I can pray, but after we pray there’s some things you can do.
And so we prayed and he said, okay, what can I do? I said, talk to me about what you did in relationship to God. And he said, well, I humbled myself for the first time. I swallowed my pride. And I said, I needed you, God and I trusted you. And I said, okay, that’s what you’ve got to do with your children. Don’t tell them the gospel. Don’t preach the gospel to them. Go be the gospel to them.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: And he said, well, what does that mean? And I said, well, that means you just told me that you’ve made mistakes. Go. And he talked about his children living in three different locations in America now. I said, just go to each one in God’s timing and God’s way, and it’s going to be difficult because you’ve got to have to step across fears and pride and anxiousness. And I could tell he was feeling a lot of anxiousness when it came to his family and burden for their eternities and all of that. And I said, just go to them, and don’t feel like you have to tell them about the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus, that you have to preach the gospel to them. Just go to them and look at your son and say, son, I love you and I’m sorry. I’ve made mistakes. And list a few of those mistakes, just list them and say, son, I’ve come to you and God has forgiven me and I’d love to have your forgiveness. And I’d love to have you forgiveness because I also would love to continue to build a relationship with you.
Well, he believed. He had a lot of fear and had a lot of anxiousness, but he accepted that. Next thing I know he’s asking me to pray because he’s got him three different airplane flights over the next few weeks. And so he would go to one and come home and I’d meet with him. Go to the second. And he said, God has heard my prayers. He said, all of my children, I have a peace with them. I’m not sure yet if they’re at peace with him, but he’s at least at peace with them. And you could tell the difference even though he’s still has burden for them, there was a joy in knowing he’s done the right thing. And he was able to share, all of my kids are now listening to me at a different level.
And see, sometimes we talk about relationships and reconciliation. But it really comes in living out the gospel and the gospel is a life of humility and the willingness to be honest and open in love and genuineness before people.

Paul Lawler: You know, as you share that, that’s a moving story. And as you share that, Al, there’s another rubric that comes to mind around the Prince of Peace and healing relationships. And it’s relationships between husbands and wives. And a real quick story. In a church not too far from here, not long ago, a pastor gave an invitation to know Christ. And there were people who came to the altar. And among the people that came to the altar to surrender to Christ was a husband who was headed toward divorce court. But only probably 40 feet away, he didn’t know his wife was there. And she didn’t know he was there, and she was at the alter as well surrendering to Christ. And when the time of prayer ended, when they both stood, immediately their eyes met and without a word being spoken, they said they both knew that their marriage was healed.
And what it illustrates for us is that is this. A man will not properly relate to his wife until he first properly relates to God. And a woman will not properly relate to her husband unless she first properly relates to God. And in that proper relation, let’s be mindful that this is the Prince of Peace reigning in the heart, who gives life and who leads us to live out this gospel that reconciles, and heals, and brings a true peace.

Al Henson: And that’s this Romans five says, therefore being justified by faith. And I’m thinking this brother and sister that’s listening in, they’re saying, well, you don’t know my mate. Or you don’t know my situation and it might’ve worked for them, but it won’t work for me. And I’d like to say to that person, I don’t know at what level it’ll work, but that’s God’s responsibility. Your responsibility is out of faith and love, to out of love and brokenness and humility, just go do the right thing. I tell people it’s only God that can change people and it’s only the power of his gospel that can change people. The only question you need to ask is not, will this make a difference? Is I want to obey God in a right way, in humility and love. And so I would say to that listener, you know, don’t say much until you try it.
And then just, by faith, step through your fears and your anxiousness and try it. And even though that listener that may be listening that’s experiencing a lot of inward anxiety and maybe depression and things, I would encourage them get quiet and just go before the Lord and say to him, I know I’ve just been listening and I know based on Isaiah, I think it’s nine, six that you were quoting the Prince of Peace. Isaiah nine chapter six. One of those things you are, Jesus is the Prince of Peace. And I don’t have peace. And so I’ve coming to the person of peace and say to Jesus, Jesus, is there anything between you and I that’s preventing me from experiencing your peace? And don’t go on what I would call a witch hunt. There’s nowhere in the scripture that the Bible necessarily says, search your own heart. The Bible actually says, Lord, you search my heart.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: And so just go to the Lord, in an unveiled face as we’ve been learning about, in humility and just say, God, what’s preventing me from experiencing your peace? And ask him to show you that. And then humbly say, okay God, I agree. That’s what confession means. I agree God with you. And you don’t even have to be able to do anything about it. Just agree with him. And what I’ve learned about confession, there’s not only the, what I call the negative side of confession, which is yes, I’m wrong. But there’s the positive side of confession. God, you are right. God, you are right when you say you’ll forgive me. God, you are right when you say that you will heal me. So there’s the faith that not only agrees with God about what needs to be put off or broken down or what we need to be released from, but more of what we need to be released into. And into the presence of God, into the presence of the Prince of Peace, comes peace.

Paul Lawler: Al, you said something a moment ago that I think I just want to take a moment and reinforce to somebody who’s listening. You referenced that there’s somebody who, a person sometimes goes, you know, I’ve tried that. I’ve tried that, I’ve tried that. And I’m thinking of the woman who had the issue of blood for 12 years, the woman who was bent over with the ailment for 18 years, and their experience. What that illustrates for us in scripture is that their experience potentially could condition them to believe that there was no hope.
But then there was Jesus. And I want to remind someone who may be listening today. You may have been conditioned by what you have experienced from years, and you are believing the lie that there’s no hope. And if we might say or speak into your heart, there is hope and it is a person, and his name is Jesus. And as you’ve illustrated, come before him. Come before him, get still, get quiet. Let him search your heart. And come in a spirit of confession, and let him get things right in your own heart. Let the Prince of Peace draw near and bring life.

Al Henson: As I listened to that, the spirit has just given me a thought that might help someone to believe. You know, the great teaching of this age of grace is that Colossians one, 27: Christ in you the hope of glory. And it literally means it’s Christ in you that is the hope of you being glorious. And one of the aspects of being glorious is being a person of peace. That you might be at peace so that you can become a peacemaker. And so as you’re listening, I want you just, if you could, I want you to see yourself. I want you to see yourself first, Christ in you, and then you and Christ.
And based on what you’re hearing, he is the Prince of Peace. So you have in you the Prince of Peace and you are in the Prince of Peace. So positionally you are in peace. And if you’re in it, then you have the great potential and the desire of God that you can experience it. You can experience him and his peace, and the only only issue needs to be what is keeping me from experiencing that peace? What lie, what unbelief? Or that I’m not willing to say those words that are so hard to say, I’m wrong.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: I’m just wrong, Lord. And I don’t want to… I would rather say I’m wrong so that I can be right. I really just want to be right. I want to be right with God. I want to be right with man. And it starts here and often, I can say being right with God starts with a simple humble, I am wrong. The story I told about the 70 year old. He had no problem. I knew it was going to be easy to help him because he came to me and said, I’ve wronged my children.
And I said, yeah, he’s going to be easy to help. Now if he can just find the grace to go tell him, and God will work in that. And God is not a respecter of persons, my brother, if you’re listening, my sister, if you’re listening. God doesn’t love anyone else any more than he loves you. And God doesn’t have a better plan for someone else’s life than he has for you. And all of Jesus that was available to Apostle Paul is available to you. So believe that, humble yourself, and come to the Prince of Peace that you might have peace.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes. Al, as we wrap up today, why don’t we take just a moment to pray for persons who are just longing for the peace of God.

Al Henson: Yeah. Let’s do that. You do that Paul.

Paul Lawler: Father, first we thank you that you’re good. You’re great, but you’re good in your way you express yourself into our circumstances. And so God, we pray for the heart that’s longing for peace. First, Lord, through the gift of the grace of your gospel, our sins being forgiven in Christ, our being reconciled to you. But God, we also pray for the person that is full of anxiousness. And so we pray the words of first Peter, cast all your anxiety upon the Lord for he cares for you. Lord, we acknowledge that sheep are not load bearing animals. And so as the sheep of your pasture, we pray, Oh Lord, lift burdens, lift worry. Lord, liberate in a way that men and women, young people, know life in you perhaps like never before, as we cast anxiety upon you and know joy in your peace, Lord, in this day and in the days to come. And we pray it in the name and power of Jesus. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 16: Jesus, Prince of Peace appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Matthew 1:23

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Paul Lawler: Al, it’s so good to be with you today and I’m really thankful not only for a new year, but the spirit in which we have the privilege of entering this new year. And hopefully today what we share will be helpful to those that listen, in terms of how their heart is postured with the opportunities that God is going to bring before us in this new year.

Al Henson: And it’s really great to be with you always Paul, as a brother and fellow servant of the Lord, but I’m thinking also how wonderful it is to be with this sister, this brother that’s clicked on and listening, and thank you. And as we enter this new year, we want to pick back up on some major subjects and themes that we had in the fall, the theme of transformation and then the understanding of brokenness and how that related to transformation. We’d like to pick up that theme as we start this new year.
This last week I had the joy of sharing some of my story, which is really God’s story. It’s a story of God’s grace, and I’m thankful for the love and grace that God has shown me. And I remember, Paul, in my early twenties I used to think about God’s grace and I would think about, “I want God’s grace to do this so I can accomplish this or I can accomplish that in the kingdom.” And slowly that became secondary because I realized that what God wanted and desired is a man that would love him. And out of that love relationship with God and intimacy with God, then we could work together and walk together and war together and serve together. Just think of doing that with Jesus. Jesus could be the husband of my wife through me, and Jesus could be the father of my children. And so my priorities continued to form and more pure in that I just simply, the main thing I wanted in my life was that God would make me in his image, as that was his purpose, Romans in chapter eight that I would be conformed to the image of Christ.
And I’m excited that as we enter into this new year, we’re going to pick back up on this passion that God’s given you and I to speak to this sister, this brother that’s listening in and maybe say something or some things that might encourage them onto this path of Christ’s likeness. From a selfish person to a loving person, from a foolish person to a wise person, from a prideful person to a humble person, to an impure person to a person of purity. And so I’m glad that we can be together and talk about some subjects today that would guide us in that direction.

Paul Lawler: Well Al, so am I. And you know, there’s a thought that really comes out of a scripture that’s quoted a lot at Christmas, rightfully so, but Matthew 1:23. And as we enter a new year, the awareness that God in Christ is Emmanuel, God with us. And that’s a reality that has ongoing implications for us today in doing life and in ministry. And so as we journey together day, and you were sharing about your experience of God’s grace last week in sharing your story, I’m aware that there are people who are listening right now who also want to taste God and experience his transformation in a way that’s tangible and real, just as you experienced. It’s not that people are going to become your story, because all of our stories are unique, but you’ve given us a signpost in what you shared last week.

Al Henson: It’s interesting Paul, even the name Emmanuel, it is God who actually gave us these names or titles. And often, it was God was wanting to say some things, not just one, but maybe several things to us. And as you shared, in the Christmas season and all, we think a lot about Emmanuel, God with us. We sing some songs about that. And I’d like to dive into that just a moment. What was God trying to say? I think the first thing that God was trying to say is that, “I want to be with you.”
You know, sin has marred our souls, and marred our thinking, and marred our emotions and our feelings. And one of the purposes of sin, and fear and shame that it creates, its voices, its tenets that it puts within our soul, is to drive us out of the presence of God. And often we’re thinking that, “What do I do to get into God’s presence?” And we’ve got all of these various kinds of things we need to do to get into God’s presence. And Emmanuel comes right at the heart of God. It says, I can hear God saying, “Wait a minute. You need to go back and read Genesis. I created you. I created Adam and Eve because I wanted create creatures like you that were in my image that I could be with. I wanted to walk with you in the garden. I wanted to talk with you. I wanted to hold your hand.”
So we don’t have to convince God that, to be with us. He’s told us by his name that he wants to be with us. And secondly, he’s saying to us, “Not only do I want to be with you, but I want to remind you who it is that wants to be with you.” God, the all loving one, all wise one, all powerful one wants to be with us. So just as you’re listening, I hope that encourages you. You don’t have to run to God, just turn and he’s there waiting to be with you in intimacy and in experience in the fellowship.

Paul Lawler: That’s so good. And Al, I’m mindful that there are probably people listening right now who are not only soaking in these words, but also as they soak in these things that are being shared, there is a hunger in their heart to experience God’s presence, his manifest presence. And there’s a couple of things today that come to mind from scripture, but also intersect some experiences that we’ve all had that align with scripture. And that’s that relationship between loving Jesus and obeying Jesus. You may remember those words that Jesus shared in John 14:21, “He who loves me keeps my commandments.” But he also went on to say, “He who loves me and obeys me, that we will manifest ourselves to him.” And we see that he’s speaking of the fullness of the Godhead. And so we recognize in love relationship with God, that as we obey that there there’s also this heightened intimacy, the presence of God, the power of God that Jesus describes in John 14.

Al Henson: And as I listened to you, Paul, my mind goes back to some of my thoughts I had as a young person, as a teenager listening to that which is so true. But it’s interesting, we will put the emphasis sometimes upon, “Oh, I have to obey.” And notice again what he says. “If you love me, you will obey me. If you love me, you’ll keep my commandments.” And what I hear him saying there, “Just love me and experience my love. And then out of that love relationship, you won’t have to get up and force yourself to obey me, or make yourself to keep my commandments. You will want to.” And I put that back in. You know, my wife Susan and I, we’ve been married… I’d better get this right in case she’s listening in. So I have to go back in my mind. It’s 2020, right? So this year we will be married 47 years. It’s 46 and a half right now. But you know, I’ve never had to force myself to want to be around her.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: I’ve never had to force myself to want to be with her, to want to talk to her. And I’ve never really had to force myself to want to do some things that would bless her. Why? Because love. And I think this is what Jesus is saying, “Experience the love of God, and then we will love each other and that love will move us to obedience.” And I think what John will clarify that and say, “If you’re not obeying, don’t focus on, you’re not obeying. Focus on that you’re not loving.”

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: “And if you’re not loving, focus on that maybe you have not yet received the love of God.” And this is what the beloved apostle John, the way he would carry us through our thinking. So if we’re talking about transformation and intimacy, we have to go back to, “Oh, what I really need to do is to get with Emmanuel, a God who wants to be with me, and say, ‘God, show me your love.'”

Paul Lawler: Yeah. That’s so good. You know, it’s one of those passages, again, where it’s important that we not just hear the words, but the spirit in which the words were expressed. And I’m with you. I agree that Jesus may have said it like this: “If you love me, you’ll obey my commands.”

Al Henson: Yeah. I like that. Yeah.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. It’s a fruit of love relationship, of being in the presence of God who is with us.

Al Henson: Yeah. You know, love is, at its heart it’s a decision. It’s a commitment. But it’s very emotional. You cannot deny the passion and emotion of love, even God’s love as well as human love and filial love. And so this passion drives us, but I might say also it fulfills us.

Paul Lawler: That’s good. Oh, that’s so good.

Al Henson: When you’re experiencing God’s love, your desire for so many other things wanes down and becomes small comparatively. And this is what Jesus was meaning. And just to repeat, so people hear that. Here’s what the apostle John, if he were sitting with you, I think this is what. “Are you obeying God?” John, no, I’m not. “Oh. Then you don’t love. And that’s okay.” Oh, I don’t love. And then John would say, “Yes. And you know why you don’t love? Because you’ve not yet experienced the love of God.” And I would take a step back from that. What I understand about the nature of sin and the operation of sin and the mysterious work that powerful sin had against our souls, the shame of it and the fear of it is driving us out of the presence of God. Sometimes I like to say, I look at a brother and I just sweep. I say, “He is shamed out of God’s presence.” So sin is trying to keep us from a God who created us, who is Emmanuel, who declares by his very name, “I want to be with you.”

Paul Lawler: That’s so good. And as you cited, desires, he had desires to be with us. And then what about for the person who’s listening, who wants to deepen their love relationship with God? How might we encourage that person today? And you mentioned sin and its effects around fear and shame, but how might we encourage that person who says, “I hear this, this makes sense to me. Now how do I posture my heart in a way that my love relationship with God deepens, in his presence deepens in my life?”

Al Henson: That’s a great question. Faith certainly is required at the heart level. We see that all in scripture. But some people think that faith is the absence of fear. And it’s not. I think of David coming against Goliath. There’s no doubt David was shaking in his boots. But even though he was shaking in his boots, he did not let fear prevent him from having the faith to obey God and to go against Goliath. And so sometimes intimacy with God, or drawing near God, is like a Goliath in our lives and we’re afraid. And so I would say to this brother, sister listening in, it’s okay to knowledge, “God, I understand theologically that you love me, but there’s a part of my soul that is actually afraid of love. And the reason why my soul is afraid of love is because people have said they love me and then they hurt me. And life has somewhat taught me that love to be afraid to love or to be loved. And so God, I’m afraid.”
Just say it to God. And that goes back to one of the podcasts we had about coming before God with an unveiled face and having enough faith to trust God. And this is why I started in my early twenties, is I really was hungering and thirsting after the Lord. I came before God and I just got honest. I said, “God, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m actually sitting out here under this tree alone and I’m sure glad nobody’s watching me because this feels a little awkward, God. This feels like I’m sitting out here talking to the wind. But by faith, God, I believe you’re here. I believe you are Emmanuel. I believe you are God with me. And so I don’t know what I’m doing. I feel awkward, I’m uncertain, I’m afraid. I’m actually afraid that if you did show up, what you might not do, but I’m going to trust that your love and grace and mercy…”
And so my advice, then is to do that. Whether it be what we would term prayer or what would it be in with the Bible. And I remember, sometimes I would fast and then in prayer and the Bible trying to get along with God. But he did say this, Paul. He said, “If you seek me, you’ll find me. If you seek me with your whole heart, and if you seek me with an unveiled face.” And what happens is I did begin to find him some. A little, and then that got me hungry enough and my faith grew a little to continue this. And until sometimes my wife would say to me, “You need to come out of the woods every once in a while,” because it became such a wonderful, quiet place before the Lord.

Paul Lawler: You know, as you share that, there’s a story that I’m reminded of, Al. And it’s really a great commission story. Now before I share it, I want to validate this, that I’m not about to say that the only way to experience God’s presence is to go fulfill the great commission. I realize that the scripture has much more broad band around the topic of experiencing God’s presence than only fulfilling the great commission. But there was a woman in our church, she taught middle school. And aside from teaching middle school students, her personality was shy, timid. And she became a Christian. She got saved, born again. And in her quiet time, she began, as she’s reading the scripture, began hearing the voice of God leading her to take a mission trip into Asia to share the gospel with a team there. And she met with me several times and was really struggling because in her own strength, she was afraid. But yet she would get alone with God and pray and really sense God’s leading.
So I’m going to move quickly to her time in Asia. So she’s with a team and she goes into a village and she shares the gospel with the translator. And she watches persons who’ve never heard the name of Jesus before come to Christ as she’s serving alongside indigenous pastors. And God uses her. And when she got back to the States, she said, “I can’t stop weeping.” And I said, “Tell me why. Tell me why.” She says, “It’s God’s presence and his heart for these people, and I’ve been so awakened.”
And her name was Sandra. I have permission to use her name. And I said, “Sandra, did you notice in Matthew 28, that this is one of the places where the great commission is listed? Not the only one.” I said, “Did you notice that the scripture says that as you follow Jesus in fulfilling the great commission, that he is with you? And do you not think that if God is going to be with you, you’re going to know it? It’s not just going to be a theological concept, but he would make his love, his presence known to you as well as people who are being birthed into the kingdom.” Now I share that, again, not to say that that’s the only way we experience Emmanuel, but I do say it to illustrate this wedding between what you described in prayer and fasting and knowing him through his word, wed with our following him, in joining him to be with him in fulfilling his mission, and knowing joy in him, his person, really experiencing him as we do so. Does that make sense?

Al Henson: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s good, Paul, that it’s not an either or. One leads to the other, which leads to the one, which leads back to the other.

Paul Lawler: Oh, I like that.

Al Henson: Yeah, love leads to obedience, and obedience leads to more love, and more love leads to more obedience. It’s interesting, to strengthen what you’ve just said, is that Jesus’ commandment is, “Go.” And as you said, “Lo, I am with you always.” So the commandment is for us to go with him. That’s the secret. Go with him. And I would say that most of the things I’ve learned about God and understood about God, apart from praying and Bible study and those kinds of things, has been while I am going and walking with him. And I know our time is coming toward an end here. And one of the things we shared in some of the earlier podcasts, back in answering the question to this brother that’s listening or the sister that’s listening, I like to give some kind of structure to something. And Paul and are calling this highway of transformation, this highway of spiritual growth, we’re calling it the grace highway.
And so if you could picture in your mind with me a highway, and Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” So this grace highway, grace is all that Jesus is available, all that I need. And this is a two lane highway that you’ve got to walk on with Jesus. One lane is the transformation of your heart, the willingness to be able to be with God and to see your heart. The beautiful, glorious being that you are created in his image, but also that marred part of your heart. That part that’s so full of pride that needs to be pride taken away and filled up with humility and brokenness, part of your heart that is selfish, that needs to be taken away and filled up with love. That part of your heart that is foolish, where it needs to be replaced with wisdom, and impurity that needs to be placed with a pure heart, and an unbelieving heart full of lies and bondages that needs to be replaced with a believing, free heart. That’s one lane that as you walking with God on this grace highway with Emmanuel, God with us, he wants you to see your heart in the power of the gospel. He wants to change that.
The other lane is the lane of disciplines. As you study through all of church history, read of all of the men of God, they talk about the needs for disciplines. We have to be careful there, because they can become works. This is not a works highway-

Paul Lawler: So good.

Al Henson: This is a grace highway. So the disciplines of prayer, the disciplines of fasting, the discipline of Bible study and reading and memorization, the discipline of obedience, as you ever so emphasized well, in the teachings of Jesus, and then the discipline of community, of being in unity and oneness and fellowship with our brothers and sisters serving God together, through obedience together. Those five disciplines. Those five don’t change us. Those five disciplines bring us into proximity to Christ. That’s what you were talking about. This lady, she obeyed and it brought her into more of experiential proximity of Christ and his heart and his ways, and that with the coupling of seeing where we need to be transformed in our heart, these two highways, then the power of the gospel, the gospel of grace changes us and transforms us.
And I would like our listener to maybe even write that down or get out and draw your highway out and put the two lanes there. And this is the grace highway, and put in each lane what needs to be there as they follow us through in the podcast into the future.

Paul Lawler: I so appreciate that analogy, because it gives us handles of appropriating the very presence of Christ Emmanuel, God in us. And so it’s with that in mind that perhaps we could take some time to pray for the listener today as we wrap up.

Al Henson: Yes. Before I pray, I always like take away. Take away the thought of Emmanuel and what God meant by that. Two things he meant. “I really, really want to be with you.” Secondly, remember who it is that wants to be with you, and this powerful, beautiful creature that wants to be with you. And then thirdly, remember the grace highway, the two lanes. And remember those things.
Our father, we thank you that you’re not limited. And through this recording, there’s this brother now that’s been listening, there’s this sister that’s been listening, and we asked now in the name of Jesus that you would give them clarity and understanding of the things that have been shared about you God, Emmanuel, God with us. And we pray that you would revelate this into their hearts. And bless them, we pray, with a knowledge of you and the peace that you are leading and guiding them. And that transformation is your work, they just need to trust you and walk with you in it. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 15: Jesus: Emmanuel appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

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Compassionate Hope

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Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler and I am with Al Henson, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, and this is Sage Talk. Al, recently in one of our episodes I had the privilege of sharing a part of my own journey. And it was a part of my testimony related to brokenness. And as we pick up today, I think it would be very valuable for our listeners to hear your story. I’m mindful that there’s some particular things that you have navigated as you’ve journey with Christ, particularly from age nine into your early twenties. And I think that would be valuable for everyone, particularly our younger listeners, but really for people of all ages. Would you mind sharing with us a bit of your journey today?

Al Henson: I’d be honored to, Paul. And I think as I share this, as you listen to Paul Lawler’s story and then you listen to Saul/Paul in the Bible story, and we’ve mentioned others like Jacob and David, every story is very unique, very different, very similar.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And it’s that potter and the clay, because each one is unique, finding the best way and unique way to mar the clay. To make it pliable and moldable. And so that’s a part of my story. I want to give you the end before the beginning, but the end is, is that what brought me to brokenness was not some major human crisis like sickness, or someone death, or some trauma, but mine was the kindness of God.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: And I think that probably has a lot to do with my birth and my upbringing. My mother, who’s still living now, is 84 years old and a godly woman. And my greatest cheerleader, prayer warrior, and servant, as we’ve talked about servants I think in one of our episodes. But when she was a young woman, she loved God. And when she tells her story, she said, “I watched people like Billy Graham being used of God. And I thought, oh, I wish I was a man so I could preach the gospel.” Now that was 50 years ago in thinking, when we all know that everyone is a minister full time, should be a minister full time, a full time disciple and follower of Jesus.
So she said, “God, please give me a son and I’ll dedicate him to you.” So I was conceived, and she tells the stories about how even in the womb she would put her hand on her stomach and pray for me. She’d read the Bible to me. She would worship God. And then I was born in sin, strong-willed. I’m sure she didn’t know what she was getting. But a strong-willed rascal really, in many ways. But it’s interesting that by the time I was nine years old, a Sunday school brat, and to get pins I had read through the Bible five times by the time I was nine years old.

Paul Lawler: That is rare.

Al Henson: Getting all this. And I do tell you that the motives and intentions were not about loving God necessarily, but you know, you read the Bible, it’s powerful and it’s sharp.

Paul Lawler: So at nine years old you’ve read through the Bible five times.

Al Henson: Five times.

Paul Lawler: I don’t even know, has that ever happened before, but keep going now.

Al Henson: But our church, which was a smaller country church, decided that they were going to have a youth Sunday. And Sunday morning they were going to let the young people do various things, but the pastor would bring the message Sunday morning. But on Sunday night they were going to let one of the young people bring the Sunday night message. And I was nine and none of the teenagers volunteered.

Paul Lawler: Oh my goodness.

Al Henson: So guess what I did? In my arrogance, I thought I’ll do it. I can do that. And I’m being honest, I look back now and discerned the pride that was involved in that. And so I studied. And my message was around Moses, and it was around the burning bush. And it’s interesting now when I look back, the insights that God was giving me, I feel like I was a lot like a Joseph. One that God had seen, looked into Joseph’s heart at a young age, and had given him a dream and a vision. And then he was arrogant and prideful about it. And then God had to carry him through tremendous events with his brothers, and sold into slavery, and then prison and all to bring him to a brokenness. But actually tell us in all of that process but God was with him.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And we might say based on our previous conversations about brokenness, that this was God’s process with Joseph. And God was preparing the right path for Joseph to come to brokenness in his own life.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And so that Sunday night I was well prepared. And the theme of my message was that the bush, it wasn’t the bush that mattered. What made this a very special bush was what was in the bush. You think of a nine year old coming up with that kind of thought. But then when I stood up, Paul, to preach, I couldn’t get anything out of my mouth.

Paul Lawler: Really?

Al Henson: A couldn’t get anything out of my mouth. And all of a sudden I realized God is not with me. The very message I’m going to preach, God is not with me, I’m just an old bush.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: God gave me the strength to say to one of the deacons of the church, I got it out of my, would you come and pray. And when he prayed, I knelt behind and cried and said, “God, I’m sorry. I repent. Please God, would you be in this bush?” I would think there was a little brokenness there. But I preached. Our church hadn’t had anyone saved in months, and we had two people come to Christ.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: And many of the adults were at the altars because God had moved in their hearts that they could be a bush that God could burn in. I walked out of that church that night, went out into the church yard, and I was consumed with the sense that this was what God wanted me to do.

Paul Lawler: Wow, nine years old.

Al Henson: Nine years old. Now I want to back up. My dad had come to Christ when I was two, three, and four years old. My mom was a godly woman and he’d come to Christ through her influence. And a pastor had led him to the Lord. And the pastor that led him to the Lord fell morally. And it confused my dad, frustrated my dad, and my dad pulled away from God and from the church. But I would always see my mom go to the altar almost every week and kneel, and she would pray for my dad. And I would go often, because I loved my mom. There was a special attraction. Still is. I’d just follow her, and I’d often be there, tears sometimes not for my dad as much as from my mom. That I saw my mom broken hearted.
And little did I know that this was occurring all through my childhood and teenage years. And God was ministering to my soul and spirit, a heart and compassion for others. That’s interesting that now I have Compassionate Hope Foundation to the least of these all over Asia. So I went home, and one day, a Saturday, I got the strength and I went to my dad, fairly strongly, and said, “Dad, mom loves you. She’s praying for you, dad. Would you come to church please?” And he looked back at me in anger and said, “Son, I’m not going to church. Don’t you ever, ever ask me again to attend church.”
At nine God was asking me to become the very thing that my dad hated, that my dad despised. And I’d hear dad talk from time to time about pastors and how they’re no good, and how they’re just lazy, and et cetera. And then we were raised very, very poor. And so my dad always worked hard, rough hands. He couldn’t read, couldn’t write, had no education. And he said, “Son, you need to get a good education so you can get a good job and make money.” So all of these things were pulling at me. And so this is the way, we talked about in episodes, to brokenness, how that we tend to fight internally with God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And so I had a very unique way of going to battle with God. And this was it. Okay, God, I know you’re real. I have love for you. I know some of what you want me to do. You know my dad, you know my situation. And so God, what I’m going to do is I want to become the best teenager in this church. I’m going to serve you like no other. I’m going to read books like no other. And so in my teenage years, I was reading books by Andrew Murray, and A.W. Tozer, and great missionary books. Reading them, weeping over them, and wanting to love God that kind of way, but at war with God because I wasn’t giving God what God really wanted. And that was me.
You see, when you come to brokenness you come to the end of you. And actually what I was doing was more and more, God, I am going to do this. I’m going to serve you this way. I’m going to bless you this way. And you will be pleased with me. And it just wasn’t working. And yet God, I could see the hand of God blessing when I’d teach the Bible. My wife then, Susan, we met when she was nine and I was twelve. We began to have love feelings for each other when she was 14 and I was 16. We committed our lives to each other and committed our lives to the Lord. And I never told her, never told anyone about this.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: I go to college. And just a year before I went to college, I had a dream. And in this dream I died. And through my death, my father came back to Jesus. And I went and told my mom, and it scared her because she knew how much she’d been praying. And she understand eternal things, that she knew that God potentially might take someone’s life to see someone else come to Christ. And I remember her taking me to the pastor and having me tell the pastor the story, and the pastor comforted her that this was probably not what God would do. And yet I was willing.
Went on off to college at the age of 16. I graduated my senior year in college at the age of 20 in engineering. Many job offers. Got a phenomenal job out in the public arena, making a good income. My young wife now, we got married my senior year in college. And here we were, and we finally settled after some training time into a town. I went into the church, I joined the church. And this teenage boy stands up on Wednesday night in the church and starts crying, and says I have nobody to teach me the Bible. And I went to the pastor and said, “I’ll be glad to teach him the Bible. I can get references, you don’t know me that well.” And he said, “Oh, it’d be wonderful.” And so this young teenage boy, we invited over our home at 15. And Susan and I had dinner with him, study the word of God. When finished I said to him, “Was this what you expected?” “Oh, I love it. Can I invite another?” Now this is the kindness of God.
Paul, over the next 10 months, Susan and I personally led over 80 young people to Christ.

Paul Lawler: Wow, that’s incredible.

Al Henson: When we would gather from, it was from one teenager, now the gatherings were at 120, 130. On this particular weekend, we gathered on Saturday and had a cookout and games. Went into a barn and had a meeting inside of a barn. It was supposed to end at about 8:00, 8:30. And God was so moving that night, I helped two young men surrender to the ministry, the very thing I was fighting with God over. And I remember, I called the pastor and said, “I don’t know what to do here, because we’re supposed to be back at the church. Is it okay if we stay? I just don’t think we should leave.” And he said, “Sure, I’ll go to the church and just tell the parents either to come out, or come pick their kid up, or they’re welcome to come join.” Well we left that place at 2AM, and now the church was a movement of God started through the church that continued to the next morning. The church service went to two o’clock in the afternoon.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: They said let’s go home. They picked the church service up at at 5:30 or 6:00 that evening, it went to 9:00 or 10:00 with kids sharing, in adults repenting. We were having a small revival. And hear was this young man, 21 now, leading this thing, fighting God.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: Which I realize through that anyone can be hidden among us, could be resisting God, and we not actually know it. But I was so full, I was so happy. I thought how stupid can a man be?

Paul Lawler: Jesus.

Al Henson: Either have this or money, what do you want? This or a house? And so finally I just went home and I remember waking up, just trying to sleep and I couldn’t waking up in the middle of the night at 2AM that Monday morning. And I looked over at my wife who I’d loved, and we’d known each other, we’ve been married now about a year and a half or so and known each other five years prior to that, and loved each other. Talked about me getting a good job. And that week we were going to go purchase five acres of land and a house. We were going to settle all of that. And I finally said, “God, I can’t do this anymore.” I thought what all my dad say? I’m going to to become the very thing he despises.
And so I get up, go in the living room. And I didn’t say, Lord, I surrender. I didn’t say, Lord, I yield to the ministry. I said, “God, I’m done fighting with you. God, I am sick of how unloving I’ve been to you, how dishonoring I’ve been to you. Please, I want this old man dead.” I’d read enough books that I already understood the self. I want this old man dead, and I want to live. Raise me up in you in the spirit that I might live and walk with you. Three quick things. I’d never felt so joyful. Paul, a 12 year battle had ended. And now I was at rest with God.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: A deep brokenness was taking place in my life. I wondered what my wife would say. So the next evening, after we finished, I couldn’t tell her at the table. And she goes and sits in the living room, and I finally just said, okay, I’m going to do it. I run in the living room and I say, “Honey, I need to tell you something.” She starts crying. She says, “You don’t have to tell me. I already know. Anyone around you knows it.” She didn’t say this, but I think she was thinking you’re the dummy they didn’t see this before all.
But anyway, we embraced and hugged and prayed. And then she says, “You need to call your mom.” And I called my mom, and my mom said, “Yes, praise the Lord.” She was weeping. She said, “I can tell you the night God called you.” And she went back to that nine year old night. And she said, “God clearly told me you say nothing to him about this. This is between him and me.” She said, “I can’t tell you how many people, pastors, that wanted to talk to you. But I told them, please don’t talk to him. Leave him. But this is between him and God.”

Paul Lawler: That’s so good. So wise.

Al Henson: So it’s like when we talked about brokenness, you rightly said this is a gift. And God was preparing that. One final thing about my dad, just to show you the beauty of the Lord. That night when I surrendered and I used the word dead-

Paul Lawler: I follow.

Al Henson: … God said immediately to me, this is the answer to your dream. I wasn’t speaking about a physical death. I was speaking about a brokenness, and where you would come to the end of you and find me.
Went through seminary, and I came back, and we were going to start this church and mom was going to be the first one on the front row. We were starting it back in our home area. And I thought, what do I do with my dad? If I don’t invite him, maybe he’ll feel like I don’t want him to come. If I do invite him, I’ll dishonor him because of what he told me when I was young. Finally I said, “God, give me the words.” And so I went to my dad, and this is what I said. “Dad, I remember what you said to me when I was seven or eight years old, and I don’t want to dishonor you, so I’m not asking you to come to church. I just want you to know this is the morning we’ll have our first gathering and you’re welcome to come if you would like to come.”
So he shows up, because he had seen, couple of times when I was in seminary I’d come on Thanksgiving, Christmas. Once he actually said, “Who are you? Are you my son?” He had seen such a change in my life.

Paul Lawler: Glory.

Al Henson: So he sat there for over a year on the back row. And I thought he came back Sunday night, he wouldn’t miss a gathering. And he started saying he wanted to read the Bible, and he couldn’t read so we’d give him tapes where he could start listening to the Bible. About a year in on a Sunday night when I gave an invitation, my dad walks down the aisle. And he doesn’t stop at the altar. He comes up and he put his arms around me. Now my dad was an old codger. He never said I love you. I’m sure he did as a child, but I hadn’t heard I love you for decades. Put his arms around me and he said, “Son, I’m so proud of you. And I love you. Please help me. I want to come back to Jesus.”

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: And so when we talk about brokenness, as brokenness is deepening a river’s flowing out of you. That others get in the taste of it or the sight of it, it begins to change and transform their lives. And so I’ve seen that with dad, and now this has been 45 years ago, Paul.

Paul Lawler: What you just shared and what you’re sharing, it so beautifully illustrates really the infinite worth of being broken for Christ, and the fruit that it produces now. Now we’re both aware that somebody listening to us right now is battling. And in that battle, there’s a young woman or there’s a young man, or maybe someone at mid life or even older, that God has put his hand on. And he’s drawing them and they’re battling. What would you say to them? What would you speak into them?

Al Henson: I would say to them, just like the prodigal son, you have no idea how foolish you are. I remember thinking, if I give myself to the Lord this kind of way, I give up everything. And the truth is I gave up nothing and I gained everything. I’d say secondly, you have no idea how much God loves you.

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: If you understood God’s love for you and how he can fill your soul, and his eternal purposes and plans for your life, you would run into brokenness. You would run into it, because Jesus will run there with you. And so love and know the love of God. Understand the foolishness of anything less. I can imagine what it’d be like if you had a church with 20, 30, 40 people in it who understood brokenness and walked this kind of way. And my life has been 45 years of tens of thousands of people drinking out of my life and tasting the life of Jesus and the life of God.

Paul Lawler: Al, you have shared some things with us today that really are sacred gems, gifts to the body of Christ. Before we pray, I want to mention that in light of where we’ve journey today, that next week we’re going to talk about Jesus is the source and authority. And I mention that because of how beautifully it bridges out of this topic of brokenness. And as you’ve shared today, and we’re mindful that there are those among us that are listening today that in their heart they feel this tension. And so would you lead us in prayer for those that are listening today, as they’re battling?

Al Henson: Father, I pray for that brother, that sister sitting in a car out back, in their home listening. God, you’re right there with them. And I would ask that you would overwhelm them with you and your love and your presence. I pray they would hear you softly say, “Son, daughter, listen to this, your older brother. He’s right there.” That they hear you say in a gentle way, “Trust me. Just give in.” Say yes, fully surrender. Turn away from the things they need to turn from and to turn to you, God.

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: You are the way, you are the life, and you are the truth. And Lord, salvation was just the beginning.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: And I pray for each brother and sister, that they would be able through brokenness now, that they’re in the room with you and you’re in the room with them, and they’re in you and you are in them. That through brokenness they might, through the grace of God, begin to experience and share all of the unsearchable riches that they have in Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: We pray this in Jesus’ name, amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 14: Al’s Story: A Mother’s Prayer appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Ephesians 5:15-16, Psalms 90:12

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Compassionate Hope

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Al, good afternoon. It’s great to see you today. And thankful to have this privilege for us to share together. It’s been a great year. We’re on the cusp of a brand new year. And so-

Al Henson: It’s great to be here. Yes.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And I’m always excited to… in my mind, Paul, as we’re setting here, I’m visioning those people that are listening.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: That man, that lady that’s listening and the opportunity. Thank you for listening. And opportunity to perhaps say something today that would encourage them or give them some advice, or counsel, or wisdom, or revelation.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: That would help them to move forward into their Christian life. It’s just a beautiful thing today. So, topic is going to be the idea of living a life unto significance. How do I live so that my life is significant? And it’s interesting in the scriptures, Paul, that often wisdom, and obviously, if I live a life of significance then I’m living in wisdom. That wisdom is tied into time and how we use our time and how we value our time.
For example, in Ephesians in chapter five verse 15 and 16, Paul is speaking. And he says, see then that you walk circumspectly, which means to walk with intentionality, to walk with a focused purpose. But don’t walk intentionally as a fool, he says.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But rather to walk as one who’s wise. So, it says, see then that you walk circumspectly, not as a fool, but as one that is wise. And a fool is, in the book of Proverbs, defined as someone who lives as if there is no God. Foolishness is living as if there is no God. And, for one to live in wisdom, is to live and use their time and value it in such a way that there is a God. And so, if there is a God, and he’s infinitely wise, and he’s created us, then what does he value and what should we value also? So, the next verse says, if you walk in wisdom, you will redeem. You will redeem the time.

Paul Lawler: As you share that, Al, that reminds me of another verse, Psalm 90 verse 12 that says, teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom. And so, let’s ponder that just for a moment. First of all, that God would instruct us, be mindful that you only have a certain number of days. And allow wisdom to be derived from that reality. And, as we think about that a bit, James reminds us that life is a vapor. I just am mindful even right now, the seconds are ticking away.

Al Henson: Exactly.

Paul Lawler: And we only have so much time to really live a life of significance.

Al Henson: And we really don’t know how much time that we have.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: Only the Lord knows our days and how much they are. And actually I think, as we think about time, when I think of time I also think of money and I think of talent. And the reason why I do is because if you make 25 dollars an hour, then 25 dollars represents an hour of your life.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because you worked and did a job for 25 hours. I once had a man. He gave a significant gift to our mission at Compassionate Hope. And I said, thank you. I said, this is significant. He said, oh, it’s nothing. It’s you. You’re the one who’s giving your time, and pouring your life out, and sacrificing it for the Lord. And I said, no, wait a minute. I said, this gift, based on what I would know about you, represents a hundred hours of your time. You worked a hundred hours to be able to give this gift to the least of these. And so, don’t think this is small. If you take 24 hours a day, this man just gave five days or four and a half days of his life to the least of these and into eternity.
So, time is money and money is time. And to live in wisdom is to use your time wisely, which then Paul, I think leads us to what I think is the fundamental foundation question. What do we actually value? And, if we looked at our time and how we use it, it would demonstrate to us what we actually truly value.

Paul Lawler: That is a great thought. I remember once having an awakening just in terms of how the culture can affect us and certainly has affected my own life. But as you know, both of us spend lots of time in different areas of the world. And I was hosting a guest who is a pastor out of Asia. And it was his first trip to America. And, once he got through jet lag, he was staying down in our missionary suite. And we offered him the opportunity to go do some sightseeing. I said-

Al Henson: Which, if he was the typical American, that’s what you’d be thinking he would want to do right away.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, we got through his jet lag. And so, Missy and I, we’re like, would you like to go to a museum? Would you like to see our zoo? And there were a couple of other things we mentioned. And he took all that in very graciously and took some time to think about it. Then he looked up and said to us, he says, pastor Paul, do you have a homeless shelter? And this particular pastor out of Asia had been set free from a heroin addiction. A group of Christians had prayed for him there and he actually was set free before he came to Christ. And he wanted to know more about Jesus.
And so, we ended up, rather than going sightseeing, we went to the homeless shelter. And, Al, while we were there, we prayed with a lot of of men who were broken, as we all can imagine. And, as we ministered among the least of these, there happened to be a young man there that also was addicted to heroin. And this pastor from Asia laid hands on him and prayed. And I know our listeners are aware that stories like this aren’t necessarily common. I want to validate that. But there are times where God moves outside our box.

Al Henson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul Lawler: And we watched God set a young man free from years of heroin addiction. Our teams continued to go there. That was verified. And I’m mindful that here this pastor is serving in a culture outside the West. And, even when he’s traveling, his heart is set on living a life that’s significant and making his days count. We’re all aware that one thing is certain for all of us. And I don’t mean anything morbid by this when I say it, but it’s true. We all have a certain, impending, definite death ahead of us.

Al Henson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul Lawler: Now, that can sound very morbid, I know. But what I’m siting is just the reality that we all have a limited amount of time, which is why the Psalmist says, teach us, oh Lord, to number our days that we would gain perspective. We would gain a heart of wisdom in the reality that our time here to make a difference is limited.

Al Henson: Paul, I have had the opportunity to sit with men and women who have been, in the world’s eyes, quite successful, leaders of corporations, and leaders of businesses, and even successful sportspeople, athletics. And, in setting with them, conversations have turned a bit to some honesty, some hard honesty. And they have said to me, with all of this, I still feel empty. Or sometimes they’ll say, in all of this, I still feel unfulfilled. Or I’ve heard them say, I can’t actually say that I know what joy really is or that I’m really happy. And what I’ve learned in life is success doesn’t necessarily bring happiness.
And again, I don’t want anyone listening to think that God is opposed to financial success, or to positional success, or even to success in people knowing who you are or who you’re not. But the point is that those things don’t make one significant. And just to those that are listening in, because we have so many listening that want to grow, I’d like to just make a point here that, in Christ you are significant. In him, you have become a son of God, a daughter of God, and you can be at rest. You no longer have to continue to search for significance. But only in those times of intimacy with Christ do you experience the emotions and the feelings of having a great sense of worth and value, especially to your creator.
But back now with that thought, back to these men and women that I’m setting with. And sometimes I’ll look at them, Paul. And I’ll say, I believe that God wants me to say to you that God has brought us together today because God wants to move you from success to significance. And then, invariably they’ll agree, it seems, and say, okay, how do I do so? And I talk then about this matter of living in wisdom and matter of what do you value? And, if you begin to consider what do I value, then you have to value what God values because he’s infinitely wise. And, if you value what God values, you value people.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: And, if you want to ask the question, Paul, how much does God value people? Go to the cross.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: One person was worth enough to God that he sent his only son to die for him and bear his sins on the cross.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And, if this is what God values, if we’re going to live a life of significance and love is moving us, then we’re asking the question, how do I give my life away to my my husband? How do I give my life away to my wife?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: How do I serve the children that God’s given? How do I serve my family? How do I serve those that I work with in the marketplace? How do I serve my neighbor across the street? How do I make time to serve and care for the nations and the least of these? When you love, you value God and God’s purposes and you value God’s creation, which is people. And then, you begin to pour your life into them or God’s life in you, through you into them. And, when you do, you begin to bear fruit.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And you have a sense of now. Now my life is making a difference.

Paul Lawler: That’s so good. You know, Al, this is a personal opinion, but I believe that the second most important issue of our life is fruit bearing. Obviously the most important is our salvation. But, after coming to know Jesus, it’s bearing fruit. It is fulfilling the desired will of God in the way, just as you articulated, how I relate to my husband or wife, how I relate to my children, how I relate to least of these, how I relate in living a life of significance in Christ.

Al Henson: And bearing fruit can be observed in what kind of fruit am I actually bearing in my relationships.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: And I believe the kingdom is a living organism.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: It’s a spiritual living organism.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: And so, the kingdom is all about relationships. And Christ has come to reconcile us to God and to reconcile us to each other. And the gospel has the power to do that through forgiveness, and mercy, and grace. And, as we’re reconciled to God and to one another, then we’re able to bear fruit of love and into other people’s lives and share within the power of the gospel. And we see their lives being changed.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely. When we share around this topic and we’re mindful of a life of fruit bearing, I know we should addressed some of this in one of our other broadcast, and that is this relationship between abiding in Christ in prayer, in the word of God. But it doesn’t stop there. It’s also in living it out.

Al Henson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul Lawler: In joining Jesus, in how we relate to people, how we minister to the least of these.

Al Henson: There’s a brother and sister, I’m going to be careful here, so I’m not even going to give a location. But God has really blessed them both spiritually and financially, physically. I have great admiration for them even spiritually. And I walked into their lives about seven, eight years ago and begin to have conversations like this. And, every time I’d go back they, they’d want to talk to me. And I could tell there was still an unfulfilledness in their life. And these were generous, giving people.
But I went back recently and I walked in and I knew something was different. And so, I just started asking questions. And I found out that the wife had went out into the community and began to work in the community. And there was an international community there. And she had come across four teenagers that are of an Arab background that weren’t making it in the schools because they didn’t know English. And so, she stepped out of her comfort zone and she invited these four teenagers. She went and met with their families and said, I will begin to homeschool you.
Now here’s what happened, Paul. She stepped into that and everyone around her was in shock. You don’t have time for this. This is a lot of your life to give five days a week four or five hours a day to these four kids that you’ve never met.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: And so, she just began to do so. And she realized soon that she really had taken on more than she wanted to and she wasn’t sure how to do this. She was sharing that with a friend. And friend said, I’ll help you.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: And I’m showing up now four or five months later and there’s a team of four, or five, or six that are working together, pouring into the life of these four. And now, because they’re making such a difference, their parents are watching this. And now, the four have come to Christ. And some of this Muslim community is beginning to watch this. And now, instead of the four or five involved-

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: There are dozens involved. And the kingdom of God is growing and expanding.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But it took her… and I looked at and I said, you finally… you got it.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s so good.

Al Henson: You got it. You see it now.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And she looked back in tears and she said, brother Al, I can’t tell you how happy I am and how fulfilled I am.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: Because what she was doing now, she had begun to value her time.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And value what God valued. And thought my 25 hours a week, these four are worth it. And God had a bigger than just the four. It’s not only those four, but now those that are gathering around her, as you can see, and the impact they’re beginning to open the doors into this community. And who knows in the next ten or 15 years, when one life is touched, you know how it’s like a river that starts flowing that’s ever widening until it spills out into eternity.

Paul Lawler: One of the things that that story illustrates and the point that you just made, people matter. That’s a huge understatement, that they matter to God therefore they matter to us.

Al Henson: And again, as you say that, don’t lose your thought, Paul. But, when you say that, again, people understand that one soul mattered so much to God that he sent his only son to die for them. And so, why wouldn’t God ask us to invest our lives into the lives of others?

Paul Lawler: Well, that’s so well said. And it ties in to really the question I was going to pose for the sake of just responding to our listeners as they may be thinking. And that is, how do we define what is significant? And really it ties in to what you just stated, that Jesus has demonstrated that, the heart of the father has demonstrated that, that people matter.

Al Henson: Yes. And, as you’re listening, my first encouragement to you is to abide in Christ, to ask God to teach you that you might learn how to live in the spirit. Because in so doing you begin to have the thoughts of God, and the heart of God, and the fruit. The fruit bearing is not only the fruit of people, but it’s also the fruits of the spirit. You bear love and love begins to move you. And, as love begins to move you, then ask the question, God, where do you want me to invest my time? And to what people do you want me to invest my time in? And also, because time is money and money is time, how do you want me to invest the monies that you put into my hand and steward those in such a way that they actually make a difference in people’s lives?

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: And, as we’re coming toward the year end here, the end of this year, I would like to humbly suggest that people may want to consider Compassionate Hope Foundation as a means by which they could invest some of their funding as they’re thinking about giving to the end of the year.
Paul, we bear this burden. God’s given us 43 Homes of Hope, 800 plus rescued ones, and some of these are OSEC children, online sexual exploited children, children who have been sexually abused, some have been sold, labor traffic, sex traffic, child brides. They’re beautiful creatures that sin was trying to destroy. And now, through the Compassionate Hope and the nationals that work with, they’ve been rescued. They’ve been given a home, food, shelter, clothing, education, and a plan, a spiritual, and educational, and character development plan. That one day they will rise up out of all of this and not only be blessed ones and self-sustainable ones, but they will be able to bless others.
And the burden every day, God, give us the monies. These are your sons and your daughters. Give us the finances that are needed to care for these in wisdom. And perhaps someone listening in might, as they’re coming to the year end, and a lot of people think about year end giving, would consider, prayerfully consider Compassionate Hope Foundation as a wise stewardship of their funding.

Paul Lawler: Al, because I too have had the privilege of meeting many of these children, I can’t think of a better way in this hour to make a difference, to bear fruit among the least of these. And to also make great impact in lives that are ripe for investing in. And I’m mindful, someone might ask, how could I do that? How could I follow up and make a difference, maybe give a gift? And so, I’m aware that people can go to CompassionateHope.org for more information as well as SageTalkPodcast.com to get more information.

Al Henson: And 60, 65 dollars will underwrite a child for an entire month. And Paul, I’m going to embarrass you just a moment. But you and your brother and your family, after a visit over and saw some of these kids, you came back and you decided that you wanted to… your mother had gone to be with Jesus and you wanted to build a home in honor of her. And someone listening in might like to build a home, or they might like to help in a significant way, to build a multipurpose building, or to help buy some land for a new Home of Hope, to do something more significant. And we’re here. Call us and connect with us through an email. And then, we can have a phone conversation.
And God may be touching someone’s heart. The most significant way in which God is doing this is moving on an individual’s heart. And they themselves are teaming up with others, are putting together a group of people, and their underwriting, sponsoring an entire Home of Hope on a monthly basis. So, there’s many ways to get hands in, heart in, feet in to the least of these on the other side of the world.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And I believe it is a wise stewardship and investment.

Paul Lawler: A beautiful way to bear fruit, it really is. Teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom. Make our lives count. Be circumspect, as a that passage in Ephesians cited so beautifully.

Al Henson: And I think, as we come to an end today, just sort of the takeaway is, wisdom values what God values.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: And then, secondly, when we value what God values, then it’s demonstrated in how we use our time.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And how we invest our time. And what people really need is you. They need us. They need someone to step into their lives and invite them. Like this lady, she stepped into the lives of these four kids, and then invited them into her life. So, what do we value? What we value, we put time into. And then thirdly, time is money and money is time.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And, when you invest money as a wise steward, you’re wisely giving your time into God’s eternal purposes and plans.

Paul Lawler: Amen. So well said. Al, would you close us in prayer today, praying for these that are both listening as well as these precious children.

Al Henson: Father, we thank you that you’ve set your love upon us and nothing can separate us from the love of God. And our prayer today to each man, each woman that’s listening in that you know them, you see them. And we pray you’d meet them at their point of need. Lord, I’m always aware that maybe someone is listening that needs the healing of God, that needs the guidance of God, that needs the counsel of God, that needs the wisdom of God. And we pray that that would be brought into their lives by your grace. And we do pray, father, that you would touch hearts for you want to meet the needs of the least of these around the world through the hearts, and lives, and giving of your people. And so, we pray that you would touch hearts. Lord, there is no I in your work. There’s an us. And I pray someone listening in might become one of those us’s, one of those we’s that join hands with us to reach unto the least of these in Southeast Asia. In Jesus name, amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

The post Episode 13: Living a Life of Significance appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Matthew 25

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Compassionate Hope

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Paul Lawler: I’m delighted today to be with Al Henson, my dear friend. Al, we have a great topic we have the privilege of talking about today. Would you say a word about that as we begin?

Al Henson: Yes, Paul. The least of these, which is so near to the heart of God. And to you that are listening, Paul and I want to say thank you for listening in. We’ve enjoyed so much the positive feedback we’re getting. We’re learning, we’re growing together in this. But especially in our hearts, is to help those and encourage those who have a hunger for God, thirsting for God. Maybe there’s something we can say or some insight into God and his nature, or the word of God or the promises of God, that would encourage someone to move forward in transformation.
Today the topic, the least of these, we really believe that if you understand God’s love and heart for the least of these, and you’ll move toward them being the hands of God, the voice of God, the feet of God, into their lives, the provisions spiritually of God’s grace as it flows through you into their lives, there you’ll encounter Jesus and there you will learn more about God. And there you’ll see great fruitfulness.
Matthew Chapter 25, have this beautiful scene out into the future of Christ sitting on the throne and before him are millions and millions of people. On the right he says are his sheep, and on the left he says are the goats. So, he invites the sheep to enter into him, into eternity with him, to live and abide and dwell in intimacy with him.
The sheep in humility respond and say, “Lord, why us? Why us?” And he says, “Oh, because when I was thirsty, you gave me water to drink. When I was hungry, you fed me. When I was in prison, you visited me. And when I was sick you came and cared for me.” And they said, “Lord, Lord, when did we give you water to drink or food to eat?” And Jesus says this powerful statement, “When you’ve done it unto the least of these, you’ve done it unto me.”
What a great privilege it would be to wash the feet of Jesus. And when we do wash the feet of the least of these, we’re doing it as if we were doing it unto Jesus himself.

Paul Lawler: Al, that’s such a rich, not only comment, but we all know this, a very rich passage of Scripture, that tells us so much. I remember when I was a young man in ministry, I was planting the first church Missy and I had an opportunity to be a part of, serving as a senior pastor there.
And I remember in my early thirties, I was struggling with a timidity. I may have referenced this in some earlier broadcasts, but really struggling with timidity.
Our church family had reached out to a homeless man. His name was Randy. He began attending our services. We had church members that went and picked him up, loved on him, helped provide needs for him.
I want to state that Randy had a very unique personality. He sometimes would come up and interrupt conversations. So, it gave us an opportunity to practice love as patience, as a church family. And for our development as well, our relationship with Randy was beneficial.
But there was one particular Sunday when the worship team was already beginning to play worship music. Our service was getting ready to start. And Randy began … walked over, pulled on my shirt sleeve. I was in the middle of a conversation. “Pastor Paul, Pastor Paul, Pastor Paul, Pastor Paul, I need to talk to you. I need to talk to you.” So I looked at Randy and said, “Randy, I’ll be there in just a moment.” So, I wrapped up the conversation. I walked across the worship center floor and met Randy over in a corner of a room.
As I was walking across the room, Al, it was like the spirit of God just quickened my heart and I heard these words, “The least of these, the least of these, whatever you’ve done to the least of these, you’ve done unto me.”

Al Henson: Do you think God was speaking to you about Randy?

Paul Lawler: “The least of these, the least of these.” Yes, absolutely.
So, I got over in the corner of the room and I looked into Randy’s eyes, and there was this sense in which I wasn’t staring into the eyes of Randy. There was a sense in which I was staring into the eyes of Jesus. Randy looks at me with perfect clarity and he says, “Pastor Paul, do you not know that the spirit of God lives in you? And he wants to pour himself out among these people today and in this city. So brother, believe him.” Then he looked at me and he went, “That’s all,” and walked off.

Al Henson: Wow.

Paul Lawler: I had this sense that I did not hear words from Randy, but I had heard from Jesus. I’m mindful that phrase, “Whatever you’ve done to the least of these, you’ve done it unto me.” And when we’re among and ministering to those that Jesus calls the least of these, that we are with him in a very unique way.

Al Henson: I think Paul, what a marvelous story, that authenticates one of my earlier comments. And that is that, often, when we come in contact with the least of these with an open heart, we find ourselves in contact with Jesus. It brings us in proximity, closer proximity and intimacy with Christ, because Christ has so set his love upon the least of these.
For me, I’ve learned more and more to define the least of these differently than I would have defined them 30 years ago. The least of these are really who are in need. And often God has used their circumstances around them to give them a sense of their need.
But I have had times, Paul, with God, that I’ve sat with a man whose income may be a half million a year. And I realize the spirits say, “Now, he’s the least of these because he’s gone through a divorce,” or, “He’s experiencing a broken family and broken relationships with his children, because he’s been so focused on success and money and greedy and ambition. And now these things have got his attention, that there’s something perhaps more.” And he, in essence is becoming a least of these, one that the culture might sort of make fun of or laugh at.
So I think we need to … When we’re thinking about a ministry to the least of these and loving the way God wants us to love the least of these, we need to think about being always on mission with Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. Sensitizing our hearts to the brokenness around us.

Al Henson: Absolutely. Because if we’re being moved by the spirit, only God can bring around and about those Holy encounters, I call them. Sometimes, it may just be a word. Sometimes, it may be weeks of ministry that will initiate and start and move into the context of their lives. But it’s in this that I think I have learned as much about Jesus and walking in the Spirit, prioritizing what he prioritizes, valuing what he values, people and their lives and their eternities and their spirits. And in the middle of that, sensing the heart of God and learning how to not live selfishly, but to live lovingly and caringly and wisely with others.
As some may be aware, Paul, you are the … Eight or nine years ago, we birthed a ministry called Compassionate Hope Foundation. And this theme of the least of these became its mission. And that was that we might rescue … rescuing the least of these, one disciple, a one leader at a time. In these last 10 years, I’ve had hundreds and hundreds of encounters, and I’d like to take time maybe and just share one-

Paul Lawler: Oh, please do.

Al Henson: … just share one of those stories. In the Northern part of Thailand, we have a Village of Hope that we’re developing, which has homes for the least of these and the rescued ones, and a school and agriculture.

Paul Lawler: You know I’ve been there. I’ve seen it.

Al Henson: Yes. And it’s amazing, just to walk into that village, onto that campus, and sense the presence of God. But about two years or so ago, we had a lady in her late forties show up. She had in her hand … holding hands with her eight year old girl named Pau. And with tears she said, “I’ve heard about this village,” and she asked him questions. She said, “Would you take my daughter?” She shared that, “I don’t have the money to take care of them.”
I happened to actually be in the country next door, in Southeast Asia. And I got a call from the director, telling me a bit about the story and saying, “What should we do about this? We don’t want to take this little girl away from her mother, but she’s insisting.” And I said, “I will be there in a couple of days.”
His name was Pastor Pratuan There’s more to this story. I just had a sense that God was in this and I said, “Please ask her can she meet with us?”
So we went … after a couple of days, went to her home in the village and this was the story that we heard. 33 years prior to this, she had been stolen out of her village. And had become, in essence the third wife, but really like a slave girl to this man, this man that had some means.
When we asked her what these 33 years were like, she said, “I lived as a slave in Hell. That’s the only way I can explain it.” But he’d gotten tired of her and her four daughters and having to care for them. So, a few months prior to this, he had taken her and her daughters and delivered them back into the same district or area that he had stolen her away from 33 years ago.
As a consequence of this, no place to live, no one to care for them, no food, then they began to try to make some decisions. Sau, who was 15 at the time, a excellent top student in the ninth grade, because of her love for her siblings, made a decision to go to Bangkok and get a job.
When she was there, she went through a night in which she was multiply raped by a number of men. Just horrific, Paul. And out of that, for a few months, she hid and she began to experience some sickness. She had conceived. And she’d made a decision to keep the baby, but now she can no longer work and provide for the home.
So mom had already taken one of the daughters, Sau’s sister to a Buddhist temple, and basically gave her over to the Buddhist temple to be taken care of. And there’s some horrific stories that come out of that, but now she was bringing Pau to us.
Sau has already had the baby by this time. And long story short, we made a decision to take Sau and Pau and Sau’s baby, who we now have named Peter. His name is Peter. And mom into the village.
Paul, when we got in the village, after everything had settled, and over this period of few days that all of this was taking place, I had felt Sau become very safe with me.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: I had just received her into my heart, because now she was 17 years old with a baby, and had dropped out of school and no hope. But I felt, “God is in this.” Just watching how God had been moving and orchestrating all of this.
So, I got a translator and I went and talked to Sau. I said, “Sau, can I ask you some questions?” She said, “Yes, Papa Al, you can.” I said, “Is there any time in the last year or so that you cried out to God?” I wasn’t surprised with her.
She started weeping, by the way. And I knew it had touched something sensitive. And then she said, “Yeah, on the night, the morning after my baby was born.” She had had to have the baby at home with no real help. And apparently it had been a real painful birth and she was in a lot of pain. She said, “I woke up a bit the next morning and I was in such pain. And I just thought, ‘We need help. I don’t know what we’re going to do. We got this baby.'”
She said, “I got it in the floor and I was going to pray my normal prayer to Buddha, as I normally would pray.” And she says, “As I went to pray, I didn’t have the strength. So, I just rolled over on the floor.” She said, “I cried out. And I said this out loud, ‘What have you ever done for us? If there is a real God, please help us.'”
And at that moment, I started weeping with her because I realized that God had heard her cry, and that our listening to God and being sensitive to God and creating Compassionate Hope and the people that we had, and the nationals that were working with, all of this, God had orchestrated all of this. And one of the reasons why He had was because He had loved her. He knew she was going to cry out and He knew that her heart would be open and He knew that we would listen.
So a part of this, Paul, is this sensitivity, to the least of these and to the heart of God for the least of these, and then how God moves. It’s amazing how much, Paul, I’ve learned about God, and how much my faith has grown in the love of God, and that God hears and answers prayers. He hears the sincere cry when they come from our heart. “If there is a God, please help us.”

Paul Lawler: Al, don’t you think it’s true, that when we’re ministering among the least of these, that it not only heightens our understanding of how God has a heart for the least of these, but we also have the privilege of being with God in a very special way when we’re ministering among the least of these.

Al Henson: Yes. As those who perhaps have been listening to some of our podcasts, one of the things that God has revealed to us and that we’re trying to help others to see is that, not only is Christ in you, but you’re in Christ.
If you just stop for a moment, if you’re in Christ, that means you’re in the person of love. You’re in the person of peace, you’re in the person of power, you’re in the person of mercy and grace. So, it’s possible then, for us to have the thoughts of God and to have the heart of God and to have the desires of God, and to see things in the priority and value things as God would want us to value things. And it’s through that movement of the Spirit in your life, when we actually put that movement into action. Intimacy with God is not passivity.
Sometimes we overemphasize the prayer closet, and I certainly value the prayer closet. And I value, “Be still and know that I am God.” But I think often, that being still is being still inwardly. There’s an inward stillness. You’re not at war with God. You’re not struggling with God inwardly. That allows you to be sensitive to God. And like Peter, “Do you love me, Peter?” “Yes, Lord, I love you.” “If you love me, then go care for my sheep. Go care for the least of these.” And as I’ve been doing that, and as I watch others do that, as you shared, it’s amazing the clarity that God gives.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Al, this is anecdotal. I don’t have any study to support this, but as a pastor, it’s an observation I’ve seen. Not just in the church I pastor, but in churches that I have opportunity to serve in. It seems to me that the most joy-filled people are those who are ministering among the broken, among what Jesus would refer to as the least of these.
You notice a relationship between being with Jesus and the joy of Jesus. Would you comment on that?

Al Henson: Oh, absolutely. No question. Whether you are just summing that up as your own experience, I want to say Amen and Amen to that. There’s something unique about when we become the hands of Christ and we become the voice of Christ. And you know, Paul, I’ve had the opportunity to hug the widow of a martyr.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Many times, matter of fact.

Al Henson: Yes. Words cannot express, that in the moment that I’m holding her and trying to comfort her in her great loss, not only the experience that he says, “Weep with those who weep,” I experience her sadness and I grieve with her some. But at the same time, such a joy. Such a joy, because you know in that moment that you’re doing something that really is meaningful. You’re doing something that is eternal and something that has value in it.
If you study the Scriptures and you study the word joy that you mentioned, in the context of Scripture, joy comes in two things. Joy comes from intimacy, closeness. And when we go heart-to-heart in ministry, spirit-to-spirit in ministry, and we have relational intimacy and closeness with people, there’s joy in that.
But the second is John 15, there’s joy in fruitfulness, in fruitfulness. And when you are serving the Lord and that joy comes … I remember once, a sister, she had a comfortable life and had everything that anyone could ever want. And she was going through some difficulties, a few difficulties.
They were huge to her. I’ve seen much worse. But she came in a little depressed and anxious and worrying, and wanted me to comfort her. I did some. So I listened. And she said, “You have any advice?” And I remember I wrote down the name of a lady. There was a widow that I knew, that lived in poverty and didn’t have much. And I said, “Here’s my advice.” I said, “Here’s her name and her address.” I told her a little bit about her.
I said, “I want you to go home. Don’t go to the store. I want you to go home and bake a cake. I want you to go over to her house and bring her the cake and tell her that you’re coming in the name of Jesus, and here’s a cake. She’ll probably let you in and she’ll probably like to have a buddy to talk to.” And I said, “Then, come back and see me.”
She came back and she said, “My depression has gone away. My anxiousness has gone away.” Because often our depression, our anxiousness, we’re so consumed with ourselves and our own needs, what I’ve really learned about God is, if I will care for him and others, then God will care for me.

Paul Lawler: Perhaps that’s a part of the theme that Jesus was addressing when he said, “It’s more blessed. There’s a greater blessing upon the one who gives than the one who receives.”

Al Henson: Right. And Paul, that’s where, in this least of these, and we’re in the Christmas season here, we don’t want to make this podcast ever about Compassionate. It’s not about that. This is actually us having a passion to give as fathers in the faith or spiritual fathers to others.
But with Compassionate Hope, we have 43 homes, Paul. 800 plus rescued ones, and our desire’s to provide a Christmas for them. If you’re listening in, the Christmas that we’d like to provide for them is a beautiful day of celebration. A great meal, fun, activities, and a time in which they can celebrate the birth of Christ.
We also, on that day, would like to give them a gift. And so, Christmas for the least of these, for $25 you can provide a Christmas for one of the least of these in one of our Homes of Hope in Southeast Asia.

Paul Lawler: That’s excellent. That’s excellent. I know the difference that that truly would make in each life on the front lines in Asia.

Al Henson: Yes, it would. So Paul, tell us, I’m a listener now, what would you like for me to take away from this podcast today?

Paul Lawler: Well, that’s a very good question. The first thing that comes to mind is that, when you’re ministering among the least of these, you’re truly with Jesus. And then as you’re with Jesus, there’s joy in being with Jesus, as you minister to these that he loves deeply.
The second thing is that, let us be mindful that people are always precious to God, but brokenness in people matters to the heart of God. We draw near to the heart of God when we draw near to the broken-heartedness and brokenness in general around us. There may be more.

Al Henson: Yeah. My final thought on that Paul, and just in adding to what you’ve just shared is that, watching sometimes in my own life and watching in the lives of many others, our value system is really off. The things that we really value are often empty pleasure, things, possessions, titles, ambitions. These things are empty.
But I think we can take from the lesson of the least of these, that if we can value what God values, and that’s people, and value that we live in it … We live in an evil world, that’s been infested by sin and lies and deception and darkness and corruption. And so people are needy, and some of those people don’t see it, but many do.
Some don’t really know what is the answer to their needs. And like Sau, the story that I just told, she thought her need was food and shelter. And she did. But as we gave her food and shelter, now it’s two and a half years later, Paul, and she is now a leader in the village.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: We’ve been able to help her. She has finished what would be equivalent to a GED, finished the high school. We’ve offered her the opportunity to go on to college because she’s really brilliant. Right now she says, “No, I just want to serve in the village.” To watch her grow …
So, what I would say to people is, as we’re coming toward the Christmas season, take time to stop and really ask the question, what is really valuable? What do I actually value? What does my checkbook say I value? What does my time say that I really value?
Our call, today, is for you to value what God values. And one of the things he values is people and their lives, as he values you. Invest your time and your treasure into the least of these. And a simple way to do that, in this season of the year with CHF, is to provide a Christmas for one or for two or for four. We have some that have provided as many as … they’ve given $1,000 and they’ve provided 40, Christmas for 40 of the least of these. And we’d love for you to make a difference in the life of one of the least of these on the other side of the world, in our Homes of Hope.

Paul Lawler: Amen. That’s so well said. And so Al, as you share that today, we’re going to take a moment to pray in to those things.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: And to pray for the least of these. But also pray for the ministry of Jesus through people, who have the opportunity to express ministry to the least of these. So, as we wrap up today, let’s take a moment to pray.
So Father, we thank you for the wisdom that we’ve been able to express and experience in our interaction today. And we pray for those that are listening, that what you wish to impart to their hearts, God, that you make clear. And Lord, in the clearness, may we have hearts for the least of these? We hear your words, Jesus, “Whatever you did and have done to the least of these, you’ve done it unto me.” So Lord, we pray, transform us into your image. Draw us to you and to the broken. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 12: Christmas and the Least of These appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

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Compassionate Hope

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler, Pastor of Christ Church, Birmingham. I’ve had the privilege of serving in pastoral ministry for over 31 years and I’m with Al Henson, Founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, who has had the privilege of pastoring for over 45 years. And this is Sage Talk.

Paul Lawler: As we journey together today, our ongoing topic is, Knowing God. We had the opportunity to journey together, Al, last week around this topic and some of the things that we had the privilege of having dialogue around is, knowing God is really more than head knowledge. It gets into the heart. And as we explored this topic, some of what we discussed was the purpose statement of the Apostle Paul’s life when he stated, “I want to know Christ, I want to know the power of His resurrection, the fellowship of His sufferings.”

Paul Lawler: And we’re mindful as we journey together on this topic of knowing Him, that it’s a rich and deep life-giving area to explore. Al, would you begin by sharing some thoughts today? I think God may have given you a word picture that’s very beneficial for us.

Al Henson: Yes, thank you Paul. And as you heard in our last podcast, knowing God is so at the core, at the center of priorities in the believers life, and what you hear Paul setting, this is his life purpose in Philippians 3, and I like just always love to read scripture. In Philippians 3, Paul says in Verse 7, “What things were gain to me, I now count as lost for Christ.” In Verse 8, “Yay, doubtless I count all things but lost for the excellency of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.” And then Verse 9, “I want to be found in Him.”

Al Henson: And then this powerful verse, Verse 10, “That I may know Him.” There’s a succinct five words of Paul’s life’s purpose, “That I may know Him.” And this word know, is a heart knowledge, not just a head knowledge and intimacy about knowing Him, experiencing God. And then he follows that with the gospel, “And that I want to know Him, but I want to know Him in the power of His resurrection, and in the fellowship of His sufferings.”

Al Henson: And this is really important, “Then being made conformable unto His death.” The whole purpose of God for us is summed up in Romans 8, that we might be conformed to the Lord Jesus Christ. And Paul says, “If I can know Him in resurrection, and if I can also know Him in the fellowship, the participation of the sufferings of His death, then that will conform me, the gospel will conform me.” And Paul will say in Romans 1, “For the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.” Not only salvation from hell to heaven and salvation from the penalty of sin, but also daily salvation into this process of transformation and transforming us in into the knowledge of Christ.

Al Henson: The question that often I’m asked is, “Okay, how we got it?” We got it. We need to know Him. And you keep talking about the gospel and the gospel’s significance in knowing Him. And what I’d like to do, in our conversation today is to set out a word picture. And to our brother, sister that’s listening in, I like to picture things because that helps me to understand and put things together. It’s like a room having putting all the furniture in the room at the right place, then I can see it and begin to try to understand how to live in this room.

Al Henson: What I like to do is to give a word picture of knowing God and the gospel. I want you to picture with me a two lane highway, and this highway is leading us. It is the path by which that brings us to knowing God and enjoying God, and understanding God and strengthening in our faith so that we can trust God, et cetera, et cetera. We’re going to call this highway, the gospel. The gospel is the way into the way, Christ Himself.

Al Henson: We all believe that and understand the emphasis. We have a highway, but this highway has two lanes. Lane one is the conditioning of the heart. As Jesus will teach, the heart is pictured as the soil and the soil needs to be fertile and then it can produce 30 fold, some 60 and so a 100 fold. The first lane of this highway called the gospel is going to be how the gospel works in the transforming and the conditioning of the soil of the heart to be able to receive the revelation of God that comes by the Spirit, through the word of God and through just life experiences.

Al Henson: On the other side then is what we call the disciplines of Christianity that all of the godly man through all of history, and we hear many messages on these disciplines. And I just like to list those. I-

Paul Lawler: Absolutely.

Al Henson: I speak in terms of five different disciplines in my own life, five different disciplines. There’s first the discipline of the word of God, and I put it first because it’ll guide the other disciplines. But the discipline of the word of God, which the Bible says, read me, in Revelation 1, and 2 Timothy 3. It says, “Study me.” It’s Chapter 2, it says, “Study me. Study to show thyself approved.” Psalm 1, it says, “Meditate upon me.” Just keep, keep thinking and meditating upon the word of God. And then in Psalm 1:19 it says, “Memorize me, for thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against God.”

Al Henson: The discipline of the word of God, reading it, studying it and meditating upon it and memorizing it. The second discipline is prayer. And prayer is not just asking, prayer is an intimate communication with you and God where you are listening as much as you’re talking. And it’s filled with thanksgiving. It can be filled with requests, but I’ve learned to make most of my requests before God around questions.

Al Henson: “God, would you let me know what it feels like to love the way you love? God, would you revelate yourself to me? God, what are you feeling when you see this picture or when you see an exploited child, God, what are you thinking?” It’s a lot about learning the petitions before God should be a lot of questions about God Himself. “And about me, God, what do you think about me?” And I was surprised one time I thought He was going to say, “Well, you’re just a poor sinner saved by grace.” It was wonderful to hear the voice of God say, “Oh, you’re my son.”

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: “You’re fearfully and wonderfully made.” And I started weeping and I said, “Really Father?” “Yes, well, you’ve been studying the word we need to get that out of your head and into your heart.” This intimacy of prayer. The third discipline that we don’t hear as much about is fasting. And even all of the early teachings in my life from others that I heard about fasting you wanted to get something. You fast so that you could be… you could show God how serious you were about getting something from God. Whereas as I began to study the scriptures, fasting again was about intimacy with God, seeking Him.

Paul Lawler: Yes, I hunger for you.

Al Henson: I thirst for you, seeking Him. The fourth discipline then is the discipline of fellowship with our brothers and sisters, the gathering. Forsake not the assembling, the gathering of yourselves together. And when I say that, I’m not thinking about just on a Sunday morning, I’m thinking about regularly Bible studying and gathering with one or two or three brothers and sisters around Jesus and having your conversation spiritual. There should be the constant gathering around the brothers and sisters in Christ.

Al Henson: And then the fifth one is really, really important. The discipline of obedience. I actually never had heard that put in the disciplines, but I felt that this needs to be added in because everything is on to something it can’t just be about… God will never make it just about Him. It’s got to be about others.

Paul Lawler: Yes. That’s so good.

Al Henson: Obedience is, you cannot know God without walking with God and you cannot walk with God if you’re not obeying God. Because actually obedience it means wherever God’s going I’m going, whatever God’s doing, I’m doing. Obedience, and we’ve used this phrase in a number of our podcasts that our circumstances, our surroundings and what God is leading us into or allowing to come into our life is our classroom.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes.

Al Henson: As we are obeying God, going. The command is to go, as we’re going with God obeying God it’s in that context that God teaches. Now, I know I took a little bit of time-

Paul Lawler: Oh, no that was good.

Al Henson: But the final thing I want to say, the highway is the gospel. The right side is how the gospel prepares the heart, the left side is all the disciplines. And you need to make sure now that you’re driving down the middle of the road because it’s not an either or. They’re simultaneous, the heart and the disciplines working in the context of the gospel, a death, burial and resurrection. As Paul says here in Philippians 3:10, that you really begin to grow to know God. I want to give it back to you, Paul. Maybe jump on that right side of the highway a bit, the gospel and to repairing the heart.

Paul Lawler: Well, first of all, you share that picture it’s so life-giving and so encouraging and it’s a picture we can really grab a hold of. But I’m also thinking about the believer who may be rotting down the highway right now listening to this podcast.

Al Henson: Don’t get in the middle of the highway.

Paul Lawler: That’s true. That is very true. But this may not be for everybody, but it may be for somebody. And I’m mindful of the believer who he’s born again, she’s born again and maybe he or she’s struggling in the process of their sanctification.

Al Henson: Right.

Paul Lawler: And as they’re working that out and growing in the Lord, I’m mindful of the right side of the highway, the beauty of the gospel in the context that the gospel is still for us as believers, it’s not only what birthed us into the kingdom, the gospel sustains us in the kingdom. And I’m thankful and mindful of the Apostle Paul when he was teaching Christians at the church at Ephesus of how to grow strong in the Lord, how to grow in the power of His mind.

Paul Lawler: And he described the gospel as this place that we stand. And he’s talking to believers, this gospel that whereby your sins are forgiven by faith through grace in the person of Jesus Christ, or faith in the person of Jesus Christ. And as he describes this, it’s a picture that as we’re, let’s say we’re walking on this highway, that it’s a pathway that we’re to continue to walk in.

Paul Lawler: As we walk in it, 1 John 2:1, tells us that through this gospel, Jesus is our advocate. Whereas the scripture describes the enemy of our souls as our accuser. And I’m mindful that in this walk on this highway, that there are fiery darts that come at the believer. There are lies that come at the believer. There are distortions, there are words of condemnation that the enemy fires at the heart, and as Jesus said, “He comes to steal, kill and destroy.”

Paul Lawler: And if a believer steps off the highway in a way that he or she is not, their feet do not remain grounded in the gospel, one would begin to believe the lies of the accuser rather than believing the advocacy of the Son of God.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. He is the blood covering, the atonement of our sins. And it’s essential for the believer to walk in victory in this gospel, to continue to walk in the belief and confidence of what this gospel continues to accomplish on an ongoing basis, in setting the captive free. To embrace the fullness of all that God has made available to us in knowing Him in walking on this highway.

Al Henson: I was thinking about this, Paul, just the thought about the difference in condemnation and conviction.

Paul Lawler: This is good, keep going.

Al Henson: What I’d like to do is just to talk about the thoughts of condemnation and the feelings of condemnation versus the thoughts of conviction. This way you could discern. If what you’re hearing inside of you, which the enemy and his lies are in so many of us, you can be able to decide if this is condemnation that is coming from the enemy, because it’s not coming from God. But if it’s conviction, someone give conviction first because light helps us to understand darkness. Now, I have to say much about the darkness, but here’s conviction.

Al Henson: If God is speaking to you, I want you to notice the words. Conviction will say, “That is wrong.” Notice it didn’t say, “You are wrong.” Because in Christ I am righteous, in Christ I’m a Son of God. As you said, “I’ve been forgiven.” God would never say, “You are wrong.” God would say, “My saint, my righteous son what you did was wrong.” If it’s coming from God, it’s what you did was wrong, but it’ll always have a but in it. “But son, I can forgive you and will. And son I can give you the strength to turn and to change and transform.” Now that’s conviction. There’s hope with conviction.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: There is hope. Conviction will actually cause you to be sad and smile it at the same time. But condemnation comes and when condemnation comes it says, “You are wrong and you don’t deserve anything.” And there be no hope whatsoever in condemnation. That way you can discern the voice of God versus the voice of…

Paul Lawler: That’s so good.

Al Henson: … the voice of the enemy. Any condemnation is from the enemy. Never is condemnation from God. Conviction comes from God and it says, “You’re a right one, but as a right one you’ve done something terribly wrong and you need to acknowledge that and turn from it and come to me and there’s hope, forgiveness and growth and we’ll learn through this and you’ll live out or walk a life of a better son.”

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

Al Henson: The gospel, when we talk about the gospel, that’s the feelings of the gospel, the message of the gospel, the hope of the gospel as I’m walking along.

Paul Lawler: As you described that Al, what comes to mind is that there’s such joy and peace in Christ on this highway. This highway that we’re talking about in knowing God, it’s life-giving for not only for ourselves but for others as we journey.

Al Henson: And back to the foundation of the gospel, Paul, if I could just change directions here, just a moment.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Al Henson: You hear Paul constantly in his writings talking about how he’s living in the gospel. He’ll use a lot of words that are living in the gospel like Galatians 2:20. “I am crucified with Christ.” Now that’s the power of the death of the gospel. “Nevertheless, I live.” That’s the part of the resurrection. “Nevertheless, I live, but it’s not I but Christ who lives in me. And I do this so I don’t frustrate the grace.”

Al Henson: See, often in many Christians lives grace is being frustrated and the gospel is being frustrated because in our fear or our rebellion, our own will, the gospel is not able to work. If you really want the gospel to work in your life then you have to follow the pattern of deny self. As we’re going down this highway, deny self, take up the cross and follow me. And I think I shared a bit of this in the last podcast, but I want to say it again.

Al Henson: If you just picture three things with me, the garden of Gethsemane. If you’re going to travel, live by the gospel, you have to say, “With Jesus, not my will, but thy will be done.” You just have to surrender. Even in the 12-step program that there’s a lot about that I like.

Paul Lawler: Yes, same here.

Al Henson: There’s a lot of things that I would strengthen in that. But one of the things I love about the 12-step program is in the first one or two steps, you’re beginning to acknowledge, “I can’t do this on my own. I’m in slavery, I’m an alcoholic and I can’t do this on my own,” and that gets you to the garden of Gethsemane. “If I can’t do it, it can’t be my will anymore.”

Paul Lawler: That’s good. Yes, yes.

Al Henson: It has to be God’s will. And brother, sister, if you’re listening in, that’s where even every moment is, this is not a one time thing in your life.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: It’s day by day. Even Paul was saying in 2 Corinthians 4, “Always bearing about.” In 14, “Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus.” Where every moment, every moment I’m living in the garden, not my will. Okay, and circumstances have changed, “Not my will God, but thy will be, I submit. I surrender.” And later on we’re going to talk, we’re going to do a series of three messages on our podcast on brokenness. And brokenness is in the garden of garden of Gethsemane. It’s when Jesus just fully cast Himself upon the will of God, relying totally upon the way of God in the power of God to help Him to go to the next step, which is the cross.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Deny self, the garden of Gethsemane. Take up the cross, joining Jesus in the place of death and that death is not the death of this wonderfully fearfully made creature, but it is the death of the self-life. Where the way I see that is I’ve already surrendered to His will. Now God as I’m walking out your will, I wanted to walk it out in the resurrection power of the Spirit. As I’m walking this out, I’m willing for death to be working in me. I want you to bring to death, selfishness, and bring to life love. I want you to bring to death pride, and bring to life humility. I want you to bring to death foolishness, and I want you to bring to life in me wisdom.

Al Henson: I want you to bring to death impurity, impurity of motives and impurity of moral appeal. I want to bring that to death and I want you to bring to life into me purity of motive and why I do what I do and purity of moral purity. Finally bring to death into me these lies of the enemy that bring about such unbelief and fear and bring to life and to me faith.

Al Henson: You’re moving in now from the cross into resurrection. And this is what Paul is saying in Philippians 3:10, “That I may know Him and I want to know Him, the power of His resurrection, but also as I’m knowing Him, following Him” “Deny self, take up the cross and follow me,” the power of resurrection. I’m also every moment wanting as I’m following Him in the Spirit for the power of the death of the gospel to be bringing the things to me that need to die.

Paul Lawler: Al, as you share that, you and I and many people who are listening have seen the gospel of Christ. What we’re describing on this highway affect many, many lives in a way that we realize only God, only God. But I wonder about the listener who’s tuned in and is thinking to themselves, “I’m glad that works for somebody, but I don’t know about me.” Maybe the person who sees things as they are, rather than the possibility as things really can be. What would you say to that person?

Al Henson: I would say, first of all, God is not a respecter of persons. God has no partiality and God died for you. And God loves you and He died for you. And this is available to you, not just the apostle Paul, but to you.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: And not just Al, but to you. He loves you. He died for you, He’s not a respecter of persons. And by the way, if you’re thinking, well, you don’t know what I’ve done, the gospel has its greatest and most powerful work to the wickedness of all sinners, which I am the greater of along with Paul.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: But Paul, he murdered Christians. He murdered many people. He’d done very, very wicked things so if you’re saying, “Not me because of what I’ve done.” Nope. The truth is, the gospel is more powerful. The greater your sin, the greater the grace, the Bible says.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Thank you God.

Al Henson: Those four things, God is not a respecter of persons. He’s impartial, He loves you absolutely and completely. He died for you and no matter how great your sin is, praise God if it’s even greater. Because in that context, the gospel works even more powerful.

Paul Lawler: Al, thank you. And I know that speaks deep into our hearts. Let’s take a moment as we close today just to pray. Would you lead us?

Al Henson: I would, and I always like to ask if this has been a blessing to you because I want to see the truths of God spread. If it’s been a blessing to you, call your friends or share the link with them and encourage them to listen to this. And now God, we pray. We pray that the soils of the heart of our brother and our sister would become fertile as even right now. I pray that someone listening in which say, “Lord, not my will, I’m tired, tired of fighting. I’m tired of arguing with you. I give in, I give up. Not my will, but thy will be done.” And don’t let them stop it. Not my will, because that’s what they need, is pick up your will.

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: You love me God. You died for me. The gospel works for me. I pick up your will, your will for me. And you may want to just pray this Lord, that you may want to say, “Lord, not my will, but by will and your will for me is for me to to live in the gospel. And I embrace that will that there are things in me that need to die, but there things in me, this beautiful creature that need to be resurrected.”

Al Henson: Just tell God that and say, “Lord, bring that about as I give myself to you in my life. Father, only you can revelate the gospel.

Paul Lawler: Jesus.

Al Henson: Yourself to people’s hearts. We pray that would be done and we pray many will be strengthened and some might be sad on this highway of the gospel, both with the heart condition and the disciplines that will bring them into a greater and sweeter intimacy of knowing God. In Jesus name. Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 11: Knowing God Part Two: Growing Down the Highway appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Philippians 3:10

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Compassionate Hope

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Hi, I’m Paul Lawler, pastor of Christ Church Birmingham. And I have the privilege of sitting with Al Henson, founder of Compassionate Hope Foundation. Both of us, Al, have had the privilege of serving as pastors for decades. I, for 31 years. You for over 40 years.

Al Henson: Right, right.

Paul Lawler: 40, am I right? 45 years if I’m not mistaken. And out of these lenses, both of us have a heart for spiritual fathering and the development of spiritual fathers, spiritual mothers in our culture. And today our topic is a very exciting one, knowing God. And so as we delve into this topic today, I want to ask if you would take the lead in sharing first, and then as we enter our discussion.

Al Henson: I would be glad to Paul. If you’ve been following our podcast, we started our podcast … this is a podcast to the hearts, at the heart level, not the head level. A podcast to the heart of the servants of God. So we started with spiritual fatherhood. Knowing that the heart of the heavenly father and the heart of any spiritual mother would be that the transformation of their children. So we spent a three or four, three podcasts, I think maybe four podcasts, on transformation. And then today, Paul, as we’ve talked, we thought we need to stop and address the subject of knowing him.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because it is so foundational, again, to God’s desire for us, and hopefully we will join him in that desire. And as a matter of personal testimony, you would know this, Paul, and others that are around me. I fought with God in my teenage years of God’s purposes and plans from my life. He wanted me to do what I’ve done for 45 years. I eventually said yes and gave in. But the way I fought with God was serving, being a youth leader in the church, serving in the church, pouring my life out in the church and tried to please God that way. That was the way I thought it would … “Lord, I’m good. Look what I’m doing here. Look, I’m giving more time than most everyone.” And I would hear God whisper, “Yes. And thank you. But it’s not what I want. I want you. I want your heart. And I don’t have that Al.”

Al Henson: And so when I came to the point of just giving in out of my … coming out of my foolishness, and saying yes, Lord. I didn’t use the word surrender. I used the word, tonight, God, I die. And I want you to raise me up into your purposes and your plans, and to be the new creation that you’ve created me to be in the resurrection of Christ. And I pondered my life’s purpose. And that’s why this podcast is so dear to me. I wrote down, I had thoughts like being a missionary, pastoring a church, planting a church, making disciples. And all of those things were very biblical, and what many give their lives to. And finally I said, “Oh, I got it. My life’s purpose is that I might love God.” And I thought, man, I’ve got it now. And then I got quiet before the Lord, and I heard, not an audible voice, but the inner voice of God saying, “How are you going to do that, son?”

Al Henson: And I was first amazed at the intimacy that I was experiencing with God, that I hadn’t experienced before. And I could sense him smiling at me, “Son, how are you going to love me with all your soul, all your heart and all your mind? And I remember thinking, “Oh, I could do this.” And then I thought, “I guess the answer is I can’t do that, God.” And then the thought was, “Okay, what do you need to have as your life purpose, that you might out of that, love me and then love your neighbor?” And that’s when I penned the words 46 years ago that has guided my life. And I wrote these words down, “God, my purpose is that I may know you.” And in a little bit we’re going to go to Philippians three, the passage that lead Paul in that direction, that led me in the direction. But I think it’s important, Paul, before we do, that the title of it is to know God. Could you help us to define this word, know, from a biblical basis and standpoint?

Paul Lawler: Yeah. Let’s take a moment to that. And I’m going to draw us toward what may be considered one of the more sobering passages in scripture. And I think it’s particularly relevant for persons, whether you’re serving in ministry as a salty Christ centered business leader, or full-time in a local church. Jesus once said this, it was in Matthew seven, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Cast out demons in your name, do many mighty works in your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.” There’s much we could dissect in that passage, but I really want to focus on one sentence that Jesus shared.

Paul Lawler: And that was when he declared, I never knew you. And this a very revealing power packed sentence. Because the Greek word there for know and knew in its tense, is the Greek word [foreign language 00:07:04]. And it’s a word of deep intimacy. In fact, the New Testament when it’s translated that Joseph did not know Mary, because Jesus was born of a Virgin, that the Greek term that utilized is [foreign language 00:07:21]. There was no intimacy between Joseph and Mary before the birth of Jesus. And so it’s in light of that reality, that nuance, that I believe is very intentional here in the original language. That it’s revealing, it shares with us, or declares before us that Jesus really has a heart that we would know him intimately, and that our ministry in our life would indeed flow out of knowing him.

Paul Lawler: In fact, I know you’re going to talk about this in a little bit, but not only the mission statement of your life, but, Al, the very mission statement of the Apostle Paul. Personal opinion, but I think he was the greatest spiritual giant ever to live, other than Jesus. That’s just my opinion. But the mission statement of his life? I want to know Christ. I want to intimately know him, walk with him. And we recognize in light of Matthew seven, this is a very important matter because it’s life giving, so much is at stake. So I think it’s important that we understand this is something the Lord cares very much about, and it’s also something he wants to give to us. And so would you share with us a little bit about how the Lord seeks to and is willing to do this very thing?

Al Henson: I was thinking as you were talking about this, about Jesus, in John chapter 10 he presents himself as the good shepherd. The the not so good shepherd is the hireling. But one of the things he will state in John and chapter 10, as the good shepherd, he will say, I know my sheep. And he does. But it he follows it up with, “And I will be known of them.” And I think as you have defined the word, as you think, it’s not a head knowledge.

Paul Lawler: That’s so important.

Al Henson: It’s a term of intimacy. It’s a term of heart knowledge, which means not only just truth, but actually sensing God. Emotionally knowing the Lord and having the thoughts of God, first Corinthians, “But you have the mind of Christ.” He’s given us the Holy spirit that we might have the thoughts of God and the desires of God. But this text that I’d like to lead us to, Paul, and our brothers and sisters is in Philippians and chapter three here. Paul is talking, I think as you said, maybe his mission statement.

Al Henson: Can I correct you there?

Paul Lawler: Please.

Al Henson: And not that I’m correcting, but I think that this is Paul’s purpose statement. His life’s purpose. I think if you go to Acts 20, his mission statement is to preach, to proclaim, to live out and to proclaim the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ in Acts in chapter 20. But we’re going to see the two tied together. So purpose and mission. You cannot walk out the purpose of knowing him without walking out the mission of living in the gospel of the Lord Jesus and proclaiming the gospel of the Lord Jesus. But here in Philippians chapter three, the first six verses, Paul talks about what he valued. That he value that he was of the tribe of Benjamin. He was circumcised on the eighth day. Verse five, and of the stock of Israel, he was a Hebrew of Hebrews. And as touching the law of Pharisee.

Al Henson: Concerning zeal, he even persecuted the church. Touching the righteousness, which is in the law. Blameless. Now verse seven, “But what things were gained to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yeah, doubtless I counted all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and do count them but dung that I may win Christ. And being found in him.” And then verse 10, “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings being made conformable unto his death.” And as we’re looking at this, I’d like to just dissect it a bit. I want you to notice Paul’s values before Christ was revelated unto him in the Damascus road, and that revelation continued.

Al Henson: His values were his title, where he’d come from, his position. He valued the praise of man. He valued in the religious circles, how he was admired and respected. He valued how he could honor his religious leaders, even under carrying out persecution. And he was so blinded and in his mind he thought he was pleasing God, because he was fulfilling the law. And these are the things that he valued. The very kinds of things that people value today. Titles, names, and having things, and positions. But now his value has changed. There’s a value word in here, “But these things I count now as dung.” They’re worthless. They’re like manure compared to Christ himself, that I may win him. The second thing I’d like is to see in this passage, Paul, that opens his heart to really know God, is that he has his [inaudible 00:13:11] has changed.

Paul Lawler: Yes. It’s very apparent.

Al Henson: Yeah. His desires have changed. And now he wants Christ. And I might explain it this way, he has experienced what title and name and the praise of man, being patted on the back, and you’re a wonderful Pharisee and all of this, he had experienced what that was like. Now he sees Christ, and he sees the love of God, the wisdom of God, the holiness, the righteousness of God. He’s beginning to understand who God really is, and the very nature of God. And he’s beginning to taste of that. And he says, now that’s what really fills me up. That’s what I really want.

Al Henson: And then I think at the foundation, he’s really come to understand his need. You see, he had seen religion, and religion had taught him that the way up is up. Now he had seen Jesus, who was God, became man, became the servant of man, and he died for mankind. Even the death of the cross. And he had seen this risen Lord and he said, “Oh God hath exalted him.” In the kingdom, the way up is down. And so I want, I need this life, because what I had was not life at all.

Paul Lawler: You know Paul exhibits this pattern, in fact he even used the term I died daily. But there’s this pattern that he embraces that’s in second Corinthians four, I believe. Around death, burial, and resurrection. Could you say something about that?

Al Henson: Well even in this text, in Philippians three verse 10 he says, “That I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings being made conformable unto his death.” What Paul is saying … sometimes I draw out a circle, and I put Christ into that circle. And then there’s this barrier, which is our sin and our self nature. And outside of that is us. And the only way into Christ is through the gospel. So if you just picture with me, you’re coming into Christ as we all did, and we picture that through water baptism, buried in the likeness of his death, raised in the likeness of his resurrection. So I come in to Christ and I know him in salvation, and eternal life and forgiveness of sin through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Believing that, accepting that, embracing that.

Al Henson: And now I’m in Christ, but Christ loves this fallen world. And so now I want to know Christ, and so I bring Christ with me out to the world. But to go out to the world, I must walk through the gospel. And so the way I phrase this, before I can preach the gospel, I must be living it. And for me to really know Christ, I must know him in that lowly level on the cross. I must join him in the garden of Gethsemane. And I must cry out, not my will, but thy will be done. I must deny self. It’s what he was doing. Remember he had 15,000 people following him, so you want to be my disciple. Okay. Deny self, take up the cross and follow me. I think to deny self is pictured in the garden of Gethsemane.

Al Henson: See you in the first garden, the first Adam did not deny himself. He pleased himself by eating of the tree. In the second garden, the last Adam, Jesus, in the garden of Gethsemane, he was in his humanity, realizing and feeling that the torment of becoming sin. And I’m sure the enemy was involved in that kind of attack. And he said, “Not my will, but thy will be done.” And the essence of that then led him to the cross. And there on the cross, he bore our sin and our sufferings. Now practically speaking, Paul, then for me to know God, I must deny self. I must not my will, that the surrender, true repentance, moment by moment.

Al Henson: I’ve often said to people, if you want to walk with God, you have to be in a constant state of repentance. And I’m not thinking about repenting of sin, but repenting of me. I’ve got to be turning away from me, myself, deny self, like Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, and then take up the cross. Do you see that process, Paul? With Jesus, he took up the cross, he was on the cross, and on the cross he suffered.

Al Henson: Now this, this is all through scripture, Paul. Mourn with those that mourn. Weep with those that weep. And if we’re really going to follow Jesus, we have to be able and willing to go out and bear the sufferings of humanity. Now I want to make that clear, as you know, I’m with Compassionate Hope and part of what we’re doing is rescuing exploited children. And people think, “Oh, that’s what it means.” And yes, it is. That’s a part of what it means to suffer. But I also have sat with the CEO who makes at least seven to eight figures a year in salary, and suffer with him. And I’m going to use a couple of words here.

Al Henson: But what Christ did upon the cross was, prior to that he had identified with humanity by walking among them and seeing at different levels. On the cross, he fully identified with mankind. And what we need to do is to have the willingness to step into the CEO who’s suffering in his own way. To step in anyone’s life, which sacrifice the time to listen, the time to care, the time to give if needed. And when we identify, we begin to agonize. Oh, I just wish we had more time here. But this is when you really begin to know the Lord. And that’s what he’s saying in this passage. God, I not only want to walk in the power of his resurrection. And everybody wants to know God and the power of the resurrection, but I also am willing to walk with you in the fellowship of your sufferings.

Al Henson: And any man or woman that has really grown to know God is willing to step out of their comfort zone with Jesus in Jesus, and Jesus in them, and go out to suffering humanity at all levels. And be selfless, full of love. Yes. And full of love, step into their lives, those that’ll let them, listen and care. Meet them where they are. Bear, mourn with them. Weep with them. And in there, bring to them the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God. And then out of that sufferings, walk with them into resurrected life.

Paul Lawler: You know you remind me of when Jesus said, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and it dies, it can’t have life. And I’m always marveling when Jesus shares an organic picture, because there’s, excuse me, there’s a fullness to an organic picture. Meaning that when he refers to a seed, there’s something he wants us to see in the seed. When he refers to a burial, there’s something he wants us to see in the burial. When he refers to the new life that comes from a seed that sprouts up after being planted in the soil, there’s something he wants us to see in that. And so what I’m mindful of as you share, is that when we die to self, when we our embrace being hidden, humbling yourself before the Lord, it is God who says in due time I will lift you up.

Paul Lawler: It is God who has designed you in a way that as you die to you and live for him, you actually bloom into what you’re truly designed for, as you flow with your designer. And [inaudible 00:22:25] as you share the story of Compassionate Hope and reaching out to the least of these around the world, and Al Henson is bloomed into who he’s really designed to be. And that’s true also for the teenager listening. That’s true for the CEO who’s listening. And for everyone that as we recognize this call to lay aside self and follow Jesus, to know him, we not only have the greatest treasure in knowing Jesus, but we actually have the treasure of coming fully alive in who we’re designed to be, in light of who he is.

Al Henson: Even the disciples, they followed him and they begin to know him. But until they saw him on the cross, they really didn’t know love and understand it. And for me, I’ve found the same. When I found enough love of God, then I was willingness to deny myself, and to begin to take steps with God out of my comfort zone, into the lives of people. I literally, I can tell a thousand stories like this. I sat once in the slums of India, the team had said, go ahead. The nationals left someone back to guard me. And I said, if you could stand at a distance, and I sat down on a rock. And I was watching children eating out of garbage. And I sat there, and I said, “God, you’re here. You’ve been here 1,000 years watching this. Please, would you let me know when you see that, what do you feel? When you see that? What do you think?”

Al Henson: And God allowed me to know him and the suffering and the grief that he had for those little ones. And then add that to move forward in resurrection life to bring the gospel and an answer to that. And so this knowing God is not passive. It’s being active with God. And a constant entering into death, into resurrection. It’s a constant circle with God. And I hope in our next a podcast. We can talk more about this.

Paul Lawler: Oh, that sounds good. It’s been a delight to share this time. And so as we close today, would you mind leading us in prayer?

Al Henson: I’d be glad to Paul. And as you’re listening, if this podcast is a blessing to you, encourage you to share this with others. Now let’s pray together. Jesus, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The gospel is the means by which we can have intimacy with you. And so we pray, Lord, that in the theology of the gospel, that you would bring us to the practical living of the gospel. And I pray that the listener might even now, just in the spirit, go into the garden of Gethsemane with you. And in their hearts they would say, Lord, not my will, but thy will be done. And then realizing that what that means that they will get up and now go to the cross with you. And in that cross is enough of the death of self, this will happen little by little in their lives, Lord.

Al Henson: That then they would be willing to join you in feeling and sensing and understanding the suffering of humanity enslaved in sin. And be willing then to bear whatever sacrifices they need to carry out in their life, to be able to open the door for you who have birth the gospel through your death and resurrection. That we might now proclaim that gospel through our own death and resurrection. Reveal this to everyone that’s listening. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

The post Episode 10: Knowing God Part One: "I Want to Know Him" appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Galatians 2:20

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Compassionate Hope

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Paul Lawler: Okay. Hi, I’m Paul Lawler and I’m with Al Henson, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, and this is Sage Talk. Out today, we’ve gotten some feedback from some of our focus groups that they’d like us to give a little more understanding around this topic of brokenness, which we’ve had the privilege of journeying in the last couple of weeks. Al, I’m going to open up with something a little personal, in fact, very personal, a part of my own journey. I know that I shared a story out of experiencing initial brokenness just with something we navigated as a family. But probably if I’m honest, the most significant season that was pivotal in my life in dealing, or shall we say experiencing the gift of brokenness, was early in my ministry.
We planted a church in a very fast-growing city in the Southeastern portion of the United States. You know, I’m a young man who’s relatively fresh out of seminary. I’m reading books on church growth. I’m going to conferences and listening to speakers share about how rapidly their church is growing. I’m seeing new models and methodologies in ministry. If I’m honest, as I look back, it was my pride that locked into those trendlines and potential trajectories of what could happen in a local church. I began coming back to that church that I was planting and visioning something grand and grandiose. Architects drew up renderings of polished buildings.
But what began happening in my soul over the next 24, really 24, 36 months, as I began growing emptier, desperate, and to a place where as the church is not developing the way that I had envisioned it. I would find myself, at times, going into our little walk-in closet off our bedroom and laying on the laundry and crying out to God, “God, you’ve got to do something. I’m dying here.”

Al Henson: Wow.

Paul Lawler: “If you don’t do something, I don’t know that I can even hang in here.” I, in the secret places of my heart, began drifting from my call. There were sins that were cropping up in my life, pride, lust. Just as I’m going through this inner turmoil, I remember going to a meeting in which there was a prayer warrior. She called herself an intercessor. But at the time, I didn’t know what an intercessor was. But I knew this lady prayed a lot, and we were acquaintances and she said, “Paul, how are you?” I didn’t know that this was somebody that was praying for me, that God in His sovereignty had touched this lady’s life to begin interceding for this a church plant pastor. I called her by name. When she said, “How are you?” I said, “I don’t even know if I’ll be in the ministry this time next week.”

Al Henson: Wow. Wow.

Paul Lawler: And she reached up and did the most unorthodox thing. She grabbed my face, hands on both my cheeks, and she began to slap me with one hand just like this.

Al Henson: Hard or gentle?

Paul Lawler: Well, hard enough to get my attention but not… Anyway, while she’s slapping me, she says, “I’m so happy for you.” Pop, pop, pop. “God is breaking you. And you just need to know that the best is yet to come.” I’m as confused as I just look at her like, “What planet are you from?” To make a long story short, I found myself in a circumstance within a matter of months where some dear friends had invited me into a church conference that wasn’t about church growth. It was just about knowing Christ and experiencing Christ. The afternoon before I went to that conference, I sat on a beach down on the panhandle of Florida and that conference happened to be in that area. You know, there’ve been rare times where sense we really hear the Lord clearly, but I heard the Lord just dropped these words in my spirit. He said, “Paul, I’m going to take you to deep water and your life will never be the same, but you need to trust me.”

Al Henson: Yeah.

Paul Lawler: That evening, through the conference teachers and speakers, God just got ahold of my heart. As I said in parts four and five, I’m born again. But my pride had raised its head, and I had allowed my flesh to take the lead. But I surrendered. As I said at one part in our series, I waved the white flag and I surrendered. Again, the peace of God, the presence of God-

Al Henson: Would you say that-

Paul Lawler: … the life of God.

Al Henson: When you say, “Ended,” would you say that you came to the end?

Paul Lawler: I came to the end of myself.

Al Henson: Of yourself? And there, you found?

Paul Lawler: I found Christ.

Al Henson: Christ at a deeper level?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You knew Him already.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You were teaching about Him, preaching about Him. But now you found him-

Paul Lawler: Absolutely.

Al Henson: … experientially in life at a deeper level, at a real heart level, you had not known before.

Paul Lawler: Yes. And if I may, Al, when I return to the pulpit, I had been controlled by the fear of man… The scripture says, “The fear of man’s a snare.”

Al Henson: Yeah.

Paul Lawler: I began to teach the scriptures clearly. I began to teach the scriptures boldly. I began to move in a trust and a rest in Christ, and the Lord began to produce fruit, which brings us back to something we’ve said repeatedly in this segment. Brokenness before Christ is a gift. It’s a gift. So I’m aware, we’re both aware that there is much more that the scriptures have to say about this pattern. So would you take a few moments and point us to some of these patterns that we see out of the scriptures.

Al Henson: Yeah, Paul, thanks for being vulnerable, and open, and honest. Just you sharing, it’s a gift. But, as you said, brokenness is a gift from God. And as we’ve said in our other podcast, brokenness is an initial work but is an ever-ongoing process. That as it deepens inside of us, it releases through us in ever-widening river of the spirit of the Lord.

Paul Lawler: I love that.

Al Henson: I don’t want to go in detail about my story. I’m willing to, but you’ve told yours. But I want to amen yours. I think that there were some initial works of brokenness in my life as early as 21, 22 which led me into a life of where I laid down my life as I had known it and picked up his life where he says, “If you gain your life, you will lose it. But if you lose it for my sake, then you’ll gain it.” And I had been reading Tozer and other books, but I came into the ministry with a lot of internal fear, insecurity. I’m an A-plus type personality, which I tended to be a driven leader, very ambitious. Honestly, probably somewhat narcissistic. Maybe a lot narcissistic.
When I went, when I went to study in the seminary, the vision statement of our school was, “A champion for Christ.” My carnal nature really bought into that. But even in those days, I was asking the question and saying even to my own soul, “You need to properly define what success is.”

Paul Lawler: That’s good. Yes.

Al Henson: From a biblical perspective, what is success? And I was beginning to define it as success, true success was transformation into Christ’s likeness that allowed me to love God and to love others. But there was the carnal side of me that really loved this statement, “Being a champion for Christ.” Nothing wrong with the statement. So I can say to my brother and sister listening in… Last time, we talked about our legs being out from under us. Slowly, as God was revealing, “Oh, wretched man that I am,” at the same time, it was probably I would say 20 years of deepening of brokenness and revelation. We’ve talked about that, and we’re going to come to that again today.
Revelation that the way to your issue was not my wrongness and not my depravity or what made me a spiritual beggar, but the way weightier issue became, “Oh, I’m a son of God. I am a Prince. I am in Christ. I am righteous. This new man, this new creation that I really was.” If I was giving timelines, I would say mid-40s, at least 20 years in the ministry, that I begin to feel a freedom and a release from this old self that kept trying to beat me down, and the enemy involved in that, and condemnation, and shame, and fear.
What I’d like for us to do then, Paul, in answers to this question from our groups, give us more understanding. What I’d like to do… Your story’s wonderful and my story’s wonderful, but it’s a God story and we’re telling it.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But let’s go into the scriptures, and let’s look at the story of a brother. We’re going to look at Saul who became Paul in the New Testament. Because God tells that story, and so we absolutely know it’s true. The process, there are four parts of this story, Paul, that I want us to talk about. The first part is the man Saul. And Paul talks about the man Saul very exclusively in Philippians 3. Then, the Damascus Road Saul, who now revelation is coming in, true revelation… Prior to that, he knows a lot of the scriptures but it’s never been revelated to him, Acts 9.
And then the earlier part, I think, of Paul’s ministry, Romans 7:24-25 when he’s crying out, “Oh, wretched man that I am.” When you are experiencing brokenness, as you and I both know, that really begins to scream out inside, “Oh, wretched man that I am. How could I have lived such a life? How could I been so foolish? How could I been so prideful? How could I been so selfish? Oh, wretched man that I am.” Paul goes on, “And who shall deliver me? But I thank God that through the Lord Jesus, I shall be delivered.” But his testimony is not of necessarily full deliverance or of significant deliverance. He just knows God will.
Then we come to the fourth area of his transformation life, which I think was more in the latter part, Galatians 2:20 when he says, “I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me and I don’t frustrate the grace of God.” What I love about that is that Paul, this old wretched man that he was, now realizes, yes, he needs to day by day continue allow this old man to be crucified. But even though he’s crucified, he’s now alive, living. “I am crucified with Christ, but nevertheless I live.”
So let’s back up, Paul, and for our brother or sister listening, let’s just chat about each of these four. And there are other times that the scriptures gives us that Paul was getting revelation. I want every listener to understand again this whole process is a gift from God. The moving forward of the process is a matter of one seeking God and finding God as He promised and God giving revelation. Yes. So let’s go back to chat with us a few moments out of Philippians 3. Who was Paul? Let us see this pride, and selfishness, and religiousness in Paul.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Because Paul here describes his religious pedigree, if you will. He shares his whole background of being very religious. What comes to mind when I think about that state that Paul was in religious but not converted. He’s like the modern-day person who is in church but they’re not in Christ. And so that’s the picture that comes to mind.

Al Henson: Right.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: He talks about how he was Benjamite of the tribe of Benjamin. He was of the highest of the scribes and Pharisees. In essence, the way I like to view this text is that he thought the kingdom, the way up was up.

Paul Lawler: So good. Yeah. Yes.

Al Henson: The way up was up. The latter part of Philippians 3 he will say, “Now that I’ve had revelation…” This is brokenness. “Now that I have revelation…” It’s a beautiful texts to read. Paul says, “Now that I have revelation, all of what I valued, what was so important to me because I wanted the acceptance of man and the praise of man.” But he didn’t realize all the slavery that went with all of that. He says, “Now I count it but dung but manure for the excellency of the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.” I think he’s not only giving us a testimony, he’s probably giving us some good advice there.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: The advice is, wherever we are, if you’re listening to the teachings on brokenness, the first thing to do is to begin to say, “I turn from what you have valued, what you’ve trusted in, and begin to seek God and to seek to know Him.” Then God will grant revelation.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Okay, well let’s go to Acts 9. Tell folks what happens in Acts 9 then to Paul.

Paul Lawler: Well as we know, Paul is on the Damascus Road. We know that as Paul’s journeying there, that there’s a sense in which he becomes blinded, or he does become blinded, and it’s almost like the Lord had to blind him to help demonstrate that, “Paul, I am the Lord. In your weakness, let me speak to you. Allow me to speak to you.” It’s like the Lord had to demask Paul at Damascus. Paul experiences a revelation of Christ, an initial revelation of Jesus, in that place.

Al Henson: He was blinded-

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: … before he was blinded by his self, and pride, and his religion. I’m sure people who were around Saul… If you remember, Saul was there when Stephen was stoned. Perhaps that was the place of some revelation. So it wasn’t just the Acts 9, but some revelation came there as he saw this man being stoned with great peace and looking up into the heavens and seeing God. So God was bringing Saul revelation. Then, Saul, in his heart, experiences brokenness and God changes his name as He did. In one of our other podcasts, we talked about Jacob becoming Israel and He changes his name then to Paul.
So what I would encourage you to see in this is the love of God for Saul, the perfect timing of God, and the perfect way of God. But also want you to see the revelation of God, that Paul had been blinded by himself. Now, he’s blinded by the beauty, and the glory, and the wonder of the Lord Jesus.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Now he’s in Christ, and he begins to grow and he begins to mature. Roman 7, then, Paul cries out, “Oh, wretched man that I am.” So he’s got a strong revelation now of his old self.

Paul Lawler: Yes. And the holiness of God.

Al Henson: Yeah.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Yes. That’s good, Paul. Because Isaiah 6, the prophet Isaiah, when he was in the Holy of Holies, God called him up into the Holy of Holies, there as he saw the holiness of God, he said, “Woe is me, for I am a man of unclean lips.” This young prophet then was launched into becoming the greatest prophet of the Old Testament that came out of a time of revelation. And when God revelates himself-

Paul Lawler: Glory.

Al Henson: … He also revelates us.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But, my brothers, as you’re listening, or sister, when God revelates you, it’s a twofold revelation. It’s not only a revelation of, “Oh, wretched man that I am,” a revelation of, “How could I have lived so foolish, so selfishly, so carnally, so unwisely? How could I have hurt people so much?” But there’s an also a coinciding revelation, “You are created by me. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. You’re priceless treasure, and that’s why I love you. And that’s why I came in and died on the cross for you, buried and rose again for you.” There’s a revelation of both sides. When the enemy’s involved, he’s trying to confuse the issue. But when God is revelating, He’s revelating the purity of that. Another time Paul just mentioned about another time of revelation, II Corinthians 12, that Paul had.

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Go ahead.

Al Henson: Remember, Paul talks about this man that was caught up into the third heaven. Paul will not even acknowledge it’s him, but most everyone believes that it is him. He says that God revealed things to him that it’s unspeakable, almost. I really believe it’s where God revealed to him about Christ in us, the hope of glory in us in Christ. But this revelation came. Then, I want to move to Galatians 2:20. Paul is saying, “I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live.” So here’s a man, “Oh, wretched man that I am needs to be crucified out of my life.” And yet, now this man is confident, more confident than he’s ever been, no longer has a sense of his legs chopped out from under him.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: I’ve watched you, Paul, in your own life, how that after this time of brokenness, God began to build a man of God-confidence. Not self-confidence, but God-confidence. I love listening to you teach the word of God because you teach with such freedom and such an anointing. I have been in the church that you pastor, and I just see transformation everywhere.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. Thank you, Lord.

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: Thank you, Lord.

Al Henson: I say, “This is not the same…” I think they maybe should’ve changed your name also. I said, “This is not the same man.”

Paul Lawler: Al, thank you. That’s very kind. But, as we share today, I think one of the good questions we might ask as we’ve shared the last three weeks on the topic of brokenness is, “Where are you? Where are you?” I’m speaking to, obviously, the person listening to us. Are you at the place of Saul, where you’re religious but not awakened?

Al Henson: It’s a good question.

Paul Lawler: Are you at the place at Damascus, where you know scripture but you haven’t experienced revelation? Are you at the place of Damascus, where you realize you’ve been truly blind but now you are on the verge of seeing? There may be more you want to add to that.

Al Henson: Yeah. I think if you’re listening and you’re saying, “How? How? How?”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: This is my simple encouragement. It’s God’s encouragement. If you’ll seek Him, you’ll find him, if you seek Him with your whole heart. But you cannot seek Him as a religious, “I’ve arrived,” kind of person. You have to seek Him in honesty and integrity. Ask God, “God, please revealed to me, you. Please reveal to me, me.” I think this is really important. This is where the disciplines of the Christian life come in. I think of it in this way. Seek God in prayer. Seek God in the study of the Word. Seek God in prayer with others. Seel God in the study of the Word with others. But it all the time that you’re seeking God, and praying, and studying, faith is not passive. Love is not passive. You have to be actively obeying God.
I remember three or four months ago working with a brother that was reading and gaining a lot. Finally, I just said to him, “You need to just take a step of faith and obey.” Because he was becoming stagnated.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve seen it too.

Al Henson: So obedience is key.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: As you’re seeking God through prayer, and Bible study, and fellowship with other brothers and sisters, all of these disciplines, they will bring you near God. And that revelation will cause you to trust God into brokenness that you’ll receive the grace of God. But all the time, just continue to take steps of obedience. You should ask the question, “Is there something God is asking me to do, and I’m not doing it?” Then you’re not seeking God. Because if you’re seeking God, you’re also obeying God.

Paul Lawler: That’s such a good word. It’s an encouraging word because everybody has an opportunity to be in movement and move in the gift of brokenness and the blessings of God, the fruit that comes from God, as we surrender and move forward in Him in obedience.

Al Henson: God loves you more than you’ll ever dream. Just listen to a 67-year-old man. My prayer is, Lord, as we pray, I pray as Paul would pray that you would take this brother and this sister that’s listening and I pray that you’d help them to comprehend with all of the saints what is the width, and the depth, and the height, and the breadth of the love of God. And I pray that you would cause them to no longer be afraid of you and of your work of brokenness in their life and that they would do what Jesus says that they would just simply, as an act of faith and surrender, cast themselves upon the cornerstone. And the cornerstone, in a very unique and special way in each one’s life, will bring about an initial work of brokenness in an ever ongoing process.

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: Thank you, Lord, that you hear our cries for these precious ones and ourselves too. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 9: Brokenness #3: At the End of Self…is Jesus appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Matthew 5:3

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Compassionate Hope

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Paul Lawler: Hi, I’m Paul Lawler and I’m with Al Henson, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation. And this is Sage Talk. Al, I remember a number of years ago and I’ve been a pastor for over 30 years.

Al Henson: You’re really old, you know.

Paul Lawler: Well, as we are in our more seasoned years of ministry, and I shared this in our previous segment on brokenness and we’re in part two today of talking about the topic of brokenness and its gift. And I shared the story of a season in my life where I felt like my legs were cut out from under me. And that was when Missy and I were navigating a very serious health issue with our oldest son. And I would add in part two that we’re very thankful that that had a very positive outcome. He’s an adult now and doing very well walking with the Lord.
But, one of the things that I look back on is I remember when I came into that season where I surrendered to God and that circumstance. And I’m a born again Christian. I had had been regenerated and experienced the call to ministry, but new prod was rising up in my life and the difficulty of it, that circumstance that I described. And when I did come to that place of literally just breaking before God and surrendering the peace of God that filled my heart, such a gift.

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: And it didn’t necessarily mean that our son was going to be okay. I just knew the peace of God and that meant everything. I commented within a matter of weeks to a more seasoned pastor in my life at that time. He was a man who had about 30 years of experience in walking the Lord, and serving as a very gifted pastor.
And I looked at him in conversation, and I said, well, I’ve had my brokenness. To which he smiled and kind of laughed in the same way that you just did. And then very tenderly spoke into my life, he said, Paul, I’ve had many seasons of brokenness in my life and I’ll have more.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: And I reflected on what he said. I was in my early 30s at the time, and I realized that I was missing something. And since that time, I, through the years, have grown to understand that this rhythm of brokenness is a gift. In fact, I’m not even sure I would still be in the ministry today if I did not grow in my understanding of this gift from God. So today we’re talking about walking in this gift of brokenness. I’m mindful you have decades of experience. What would you share around this gift today?

Al Henson: Just listening to you Paul, three or four things and I’ll try just to state them and not dig into them too much. Brokenness it’s called a gift. You’re calling it a gift, which is right because it comes from God. A brother, a sister cannot bring brokenness into their own life. Only God can actually do that. And as we learned in our last podcast, we said we trust that there’s a verse in John in chapter 21 that says, cast yourself upon this stone and you will be broken and Christ is the stone. It’s a choice, but it is a process.
But there is generally an initial work and that initial work then opens up the heart. And the way I like to express it, a heart that then as you process through life, there will be small times of brokenness and in the course of 30, 40 years, there may be three or four significant times of brokenness. But brokenness is not a one-time event. It’s a lifestyle.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: It really is a soul, heart and soul attitude. And it is a process and it’s ever … as brokenness is ever deepening inside of us, and through revelation of God and revelation of ourselves as brokenness is ever deepening. Then Jesus said, out of your belly shall flow rivers of water, but rivers, water cannot flow out of your inner being, your belly. He, speaking of your inner being, unless it’s broke. It’s a broken vessel. And I see the life of my own life and the life of others that as broken is ever deepening that river is ever widening.

Paul Lawler: Let’s repeat that. Okay. Say it again please.

Al Henson: As the work of brokenness is ever deepening from within. Then the outflow of God, the outflow of the river of, life, God’s life in you and through you is ever widening.

Paul Lawler: That is significant. That is so significant.

Al Henson: One of the things … the second thing Paul as you were talking is … thank you Paul. The second thing is that we have an enemy that hates us. And so we have things inside of us that are combating, bringing us into conflict with really trusting God at this kind of deep level. And a part of that is fear. We’re afraid if I come to the end of me, maybe I’m at zero. I’m at nothing.
The second thing is, is that the work of woundedness and all of us, we’re living in a dysfunctional society, a dysfunctional culture with dysfunctional families and the broken home, we’re all being raised in shame-based environments. And shameful things are happening to us with the moral revolution and et cetera, et cetera. And so this sin that has come against us is destroying the sense of worth and value of our soul. And so we’re doing everything we can do to try to feel like we’re have some worth. And to then get a revelation from God of how wrong I am. It seems to affirm everything we’ve not wanted to be affirmed inside of us.
And that’s why a lot of the conflict is pride coupled with fear and shame and its operation that is keeping us from going at this kind of level with God and into brokenness. But God loves us. And so he’s slowly operating and functioning as a sovereign potter in our lives to bring us to this.
And then the other third thing that you shared, and you might want to go back there, we can chat about it a bit, is that if we do come to brokenness, then Satan gets involved in that and says, okay, yep. Now you finally figured it out. You are worthless. You are at the end of yourself. And what you was afraid of yes, it’s true. And you said my legs feel-

Paul Lawler: Like they’ve been cut out from under you.

Al Henson: They’ve been cut out from under me. Because in many ways I say this, you’ve been brought to less than zero. When I began to experience brokenness in my own life in my 20s the best way I could describe it as it was not zero. When I saw how wrong I was and what I could not do that I thought I could do and how much I needed God, blessed are the poor in spirit. When I saw all this and begin the pride and how I’d really been the enemy of God and how I’d been so religious and not being transformed, I felt less than a zero. And I thought, God you’ve made me feel less than a zero but the joy is a God doesn’t want to leave you there. It’s not where he wants to leave you.
Now he’s got you to the place that now God can take this beautiful creature, that you are, this creature, that’s wonderfully and fearfully made, and now he can remold him into a new creation and a vessel that God intended you to be in usefulness.

Paul Lawler: Al, this is anecdotal, but as you share that I’m mindful through the years and just like you decades of ministry, that every time I’ve been braced of brokenness before Christ, he’s replaced it with peace, his joy a contentedness. Not a complacency, but a contentedness in Christ. And the gift is Jesus himself. And it’s like we talked about in part one, where do I dwell? The Lord says. I dwell with him who is humble of heart, contrite in spirit, trembles at my word and it says, if the Lord just freshly inebriates the heart, the spirit that I am your dwelling place and there’s no greater gift.

Al Henson: One of the things that Paul, I have enjoyed observing, as you mentioned, I’m involved with Compassionate Foundation. And the core of what we do is rescuing the least of these. Rescuing children and young ones that have been exploited in Southeast Asian.
Something I have observed where they come to us with Christ, they are broken already. They are at the end of themselves. So we have found it easier in many ways to bring them in, to see them come into Christ, and to see once they come into Christ transformation taking place. But it’s interesting to watch the most predominant thing that we have to teach them is that in Christ you’re a princess. In Christ if they’re a young man, you are a prince. I love the song. I am a child of God. And I often say it to my own soul. I am not the son of God but I am a son of God. And my wife is a daughter of God.
And, so the enemy gets involved and how I could share this is that when God gives a revelation, his revelation is two fold. It’s a revelation of you without God, and that’s brokenness. A revelation of you without God is utterly wrong, utterly needy, utterly … you cannot, no matter how hard you try, you cannot fix yourself. You cannot have a purpose and value you. No matter what you try, you can try to fill up your emptiness with money or even in Christianity, people are trying to fill up their emptiness by building the kingdom. And it’ll never fill you up. It can only be filled up with Christ.
But there’s a revelation then of who you are in Christ. And I like … and Paul will say this three times to one, he will say Christ in you, Colossians 1:27 the Hope of Glory. But three times to one, he will say you are in Christ. And in Christ you who are wrong have become a righteous one. In Christ you who cannot can now do all things through Christ, which strengthens with you.
And I remember once with one of the young ladies, she shared that she’d been rescued and she’d grown up and matured and she had shared, I have this burden to rescue other girls. And we helped her to start a home with just two or three girls.

Paul Lawler: Oh wow.

Al Henson: And when I talked to her, she’d be easily defeated, which was not to my surprise. And even though she was learning to see herself as a princess, and I just had her start quoting, I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me. And the way you can do that is because you’re in Christ.
And this revelation where I am at now, 40 something years walking with God, every moment I have this internal thought pattern, this internal attitude, this internal song that might be singing and it’s saying something like this, I am and was wrong. But now I am a child of God. So every moment there’s, I cannot, I can. I cannot, but I can. I was wrong, but I was righteous. Yes. And in every moment that’s true humility and true trust that I’m fully aware of what I was, yes. But I’m also in the same moment rejoicing because I’m fully aware of who I am and how God can and will use me in his eternal purposes and plans.

Paul Lawler: Al, I think as you share that picture you gave of the young lady in Asia that stepped into this ministry of caring for these orphans, and then you’ve alluded that you could see that she was coming to the end of herself. I think that’s a picture for many of us. Was it A.W. Tozer who once said, I’ve never used a man greatly until … or God has never used a man greatly until he’s allowed him to be wounded deeply?

Al Henson: The actual words were, I’ve never seen a man greatly used of God and whom God did not first crush.

Paul Lawler: And the point is that there’s a place where we do come to the end of ourselves even after we’re born again.

Al Henson: Can I tell you something Paul?

Paul Lawler: Please.

Al Henson: This is the pride of a young man, a young pastor. When I first read that statement, I think I was like 23 years old. You know what I said? I read it and I said to Tozer, even though he was … I sort of said, Tozer, I’m going to be different. I am so given to God. I am so surrendered to the Lord. I am am so trusting in God. No one else understands how much this young man has given to the Lord. And how prideful that statement was, how arrogant it was, and how God over the next years began the process of crushing me.

Paul Lawler: And it is a gift, but it illustrates how we can be deceived and not know we’re deceived because we’re deceived. And in that deception, it’s the very thing where the crushing needs to take place.

Al Henson: Yes, And if I have heard this conversation at 24, 25, it probably would have scared me. I would have been afraid of this. And my brother and sister may be listening in saying, I’ve heard the old expression, don’t pray for patience unless you really mean it. And the thought is this is such God’s work. My advice to everyone is don’t attempt to do this in your life. This is my advice, desire to know God, seek him, and ask God in His infinite love, and His infinite wisdom to revelate himself to you. God, give me revelation. My people perish for-

Paul Lawler: Lack of revelation.

Al Henson: For lack of revelation.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And Paul it just saddens me in the churches not only in America but around the world how much little revelation, true revelation, is taking place. And we are even given more to people having a word of prophecy, or speaking a word of knowledge. We’re hungry for those kinds of things, and instead of the spirit of God taking the word of God and truly revelation to us God’s understanding of himself.
But fear I John, chapter four going back to the fear factor, this is my brother’s listing or my sister, or my fellow pastor, or servant of the Lord, I John 4:18-19, and verse 19 says, perfect love drives out all fear. And he that is afraid is not yet made mature in the love of God. And I would say to you, your fear is an indication of your lack of understanding of how much God loves you.

Paul Lawler: Yes. You know as we’re sharing around this and it’s such a key component, key truth that you’ve just stated because love does set us free. But I’m mindful of the relationship between our brokenness and poverty of spirit. And you and I’ve talked about Matthew 5:3 blessed are the poor in spirit. Theirs is the kingdom of God. Say a word about that again and why would Jesus begin his sermon, really, I think the most strategic sermon he preached, why would he begin it there?

Al Henson: It’s interesting. The things of God are very part paradoxical. It seems if you’re poor you shall be rich. If you are broken, you shall be whole. If you become a slave of God, you shall be free. He that gains his life will lose it. But he that loses his life for my name’s sake will gain it. And the things have got to the natural mind make no sense. They seem unreasonable. And what Matthew 5:3 is Jesus is saying, these will be the spirit and attitudes we call them the beatitudes of my people. And the word poor there means beggar. It literally means beggar. And he’s not speaking about physically begging. But being spiritually a spiritual beggar. And again, Jesus says he that is sick, will see his need of a great physician.
And actually back to my thought of every moment in your life, every moment in your life I am a beggar. It’s just, it’s hard for me to think of that thought without the reality of it experiencing it even emotionally at this moment. And my in my emotions are not sadness. They’re actually of joy because in my destitution, in my utter poverty, I have found and experienced the riches of Christ. And I have been made rich and pride doesn’t want to need. Pride wants to be self-sufficient.
But the truth is, is that we are utterly need God and we utterly need our brothers and sisters in God’s work, in and through them into our lives. So blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall inherit the things of God. They will receive the grace of God. And back again I would just say pray God, please grant me revelation of me and of you, and then move on the light that God gives you.

Paul Lawler: Al you again, I’ve noted this before. We both spend a lot of time in global context and an observation I think we would share is that with physical property, there is a more or shall we say, a deeper awareness of spiritual poverty. And it is a concern sometimes in the American church who we love deeply that. We’re not tarnishing a part of the pride here, but we do notice that hunger, that sense of poverty, the awareness doesn’t seem as keen.

Al Henson: There’s a reason why Jesus said that it’d be harder for the rich man to come into the kingdom than for the camel to get through the eye of a needle. And what I’ve seen just in observation in America and other places where there is plenty, and I don’t, until you’ve walked in the poverty in the world, you have no … it’s really hard to understand how much we have. How much we really have.
And what happens is our plenty are having land, having a house, having vehicles, having money in the bank. All of this simply mask us. It says to us, I … it’s like the rich man looked at warehouses in the Bible and says, I have no need. And what you’re saying, Paul, is that the physical things that we have, the enemy uses those to blind us and to mask us from our spiritual needs. And I’ve had the privilege of walking with the poor of the poor in the world. And I’ve had the rich the privilege of walking with some of the richest of the world. And I’ve found in the riches of the world that God can even relate to them.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Oh, I’ve seen it too.

Al Henson: And I’ve seen it. And so some of the brothers and sisters that I walk with, and humanly or some of the richest people in America, and yet they walk with great brokenenss and great. And God uses them in great ways of generosity in the kingdom.

Paul Lawler: Which illustrates why brokenness is such a gift. Whether it’s for the rich or for the poor or someone anywhere on the socioeconomic scale, that this is a gift from God, birth from God, which lays the seed so that the revelation of God would take root in our own hearts and lives.

Al Henson: Yeah. I remember being in the sixth floor of a corporate office with the founder and CEO of the corporation. And I remember talking to him about the least of these. And he gave a gift, and what I said to him, thank you on behalf of the least of these and yes, thank you. He wept and he said, oh no, thank God, and thank you that God would allow me to be a small part.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: That’s humility and brokenness. Instead of being proud of what he had done, he was humbled and he was given the privilege to give this kind of way into something eternal. This is humility and brokenness.

Paul Lawler: And as you describe that picture Al, it’s a picture of a person experiencing the living Christ working and flowing through his life. A person who’s been set free in the joy of the Lord.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: Let’s pray as we close today. Father, we pray, increase our understanding around the gift of brokenness. God, we lift the person listening to you today that may be walking through a season where it feels as if their legs have been cut out from under them and we pray that in the circumstance that Lord, you indeed would revelate the love of God in Christ Jesus. That you would demonstrate to this person that there indeed is more of you and that you are the sustainer. You’re the one who redeems. You’re the one who has all power to take this circumstance and work good in the heart, the conformity to Jesus Christ that sets the captive free. That births hope because we recognize hope is a person. His name is Jesus.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: But we pray also for the person who is walking on the mountain top. Things are good. They’re not in a season where they sense their legs have been cut out from under them, but yet Lord, brokenness is a gift to that person as well. Just as we heard illustrated in the man who is looking out the window of his office and who just gave a large gift for the least of these who are hungry and need to be clothed and educated around the world. Lord, that person also discovered something sacred and a gift from you. And just as that man knew great joy through his brokenness, we pray for persons who are walking in seasons that are positive and good and life-giving that you give the gift of understanding and experience of brokenness that yields great fruit and the advancement of the kingdom of God. We pray this in the loving and strong name of Jesus. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen.

The post Episode 8: Brokenness #2: It’s not an Outcome, It’s a Lifestyle appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Isaiah 66:1-3

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Compassionate Hope

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Hi, I’m Paul Lawler and I’m with Al Henson and this is SageTalk.
Al, when we open the scriptures and read the saints through time, one of the threads that we often see is this thread on the issue of brokenness, and its importance. That stirs a lot of curiosity for people. Then, there are a lot of persons who are just naive around the importance of this. Why is brokenness so important?

Al Henson: If you read the scriptures from beginning to end, another word for brokenness, in the same family we might say, is the word humility, the word repentance. For example, James 4 teaches us that God resists the proud. Literally, he stiff arms the proud, and he gives grace to the humble. So what personally people are finding is, I found in my own life, if there’s pride, and pride is probably the foundation to all sin, it is the father of all sin, it was the original sin, because pride basically says, “I’m a little G-O-D.” I trust myself. I can control my life. Brokenness is the opposite of that, and I hope in our conversation today, we’ll have some time to dig into that a bit.
But one of the reasons why it’s important is because it’s in the place of brokenness that we make ourselves available to the grace of God. As Paul says in I Corinthians 15, “I am what I am by the grace of God.” We learn in Titus and Timothy that God’s grace is that that really, really transforms us. So this topic today, that we’ll have in this podcast and in the podcast to come, the next one, will be about brokenness. I hope that my brother and my sister will listen in, as you and I chat about, have a conversation about, this Biblical brokenness.

Paul Lawler: Al, would you think it would be fair to say that brokenness is foundational?

Al Henson: Absolutely. I think in the inner heart condition, that opens the heart then to be filled with the grace of God, to be a person of love, to be a person of wisdom, that brokenness is the foundational essential. Even if you want to take the words faith and repentance, there cannot be faith without repentance, and a Godly repentance. And there cannot be a Godly repentance without faith. One does not co-exist without the other.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: I’ve learned in my life that when I think of brokenness, humility and repentance, that I try to walk before God in a constant state of repentance. People think about, “I need to repent when I’ve done something wrong.” But repentance, at its core, is a turning. It’s a turning from unto. It’s a turning from sin and the world, but mostly, it’s a turning from myself, from a confidence in myself, unto God. So, I’m moment by moment repenting, because I’m moment by moment turning away from myself and my confidence in myself, or a feeling that I need to control my life. I’m turning toward God, and this grace that allows me to do this, and makes more grace available to me is … it’s foundational. I think, Paul, that across America, this subject is really spoken of very little.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. I would lovingly agree.

Al Henson: When it is spoken of, I sometimes cringe a little, that it’s dealt with so lightly and so much on the surface.

Paul Lawler: I think that’s a very good point, particularly when we’re talking about something that is foundational, and without a proper foundation. We all know just from an architectural observation, the implications of not having a a good foundation.

Al Henson: Let’s look for a moment into the scriptures, just to see how important and how essential this is.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: David, in Psalm 51:17, David has sinned. He’s committed adultery with Bathsheba. He has orchestrated the death of her husband, Uriah. He’s brokenhearted. This has been revealed to him. It’s been brought to light by the prophet, and David is prostrate before God, and in brokenness. You might ask, “Why did he take that posture?” This is what he says, “Sacrifice is,” and this is Psalm 51:11, “Sacrifice is offering the lamb. And burnt offerings to you is not really what you want.” So I’m going to give you, God, at this time, what you actually really want from me, as your follower, as as your son. This is what he says, “What you really desire is a broken and a contrite spirit.” So that’s the offering that makes every other offering a worshipful expression to God. Whether it’s our tithes, whether it’s our time, whether it’s our service.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes. You know, there’s an image that comes to mind, that I’ve heard from time to time, that brokenness is like when a horse becomes broken. The horse becomes submissive to his master. David, in that picture that you just gave, there’s something deeper happening. That is that, there’s just a complete submission that … in that circumstance in his life.

Al Henson: The word meekness in the Bible, many biblical scholars use the very illustration that you have used, that meekness is power and beauty, reigned in and brought under control. Now, God has given us life. God has given us a mind to think. God has given us a will to choose. But brokenness, meekness, and Moses was said to be the meekest man upon the Earth, is to take this stallion, this beautiful creature that God has created in you and I, and I say that because in brokenness, we see our ugliness. We see our sinfulness. But it is this creature that God has created. Now reined, and with the horse, they say you can take this powerful being and once they are broken, and that’s the word that those who train a horse will say, once they are broken, then just with the touch of the riders shifting on the reins, the horse will move and shift and obey the master that is riding it. This is a picture of brokenness.

Paul Lawler: Al, when I was a young, as a pastor, I’m mindful that you and I share something, many things in common, but one of those things is that we both had sons who encountered some health issues that were life-threatening. When my oldest son, our oldest son, Missy and I, was in his early years, a year or two, three years old, he developed some seizures that were causing damage to him neurologically. As I share this, I just recall how I grew very subtly angry, angry at God. And I was very much in control.

Al Henson: What do you think, Paul, as you were growing in anger and taking control, what was driving that internally inside of you?

Paul Lawler: Quite honestly, this is hard to look back on, but I think I was taking the place of God.

Al Henson: Yeah, pride.

Paul Lawler: Yes, very much so.

Al Henson: Interesting. Here’s this young pastor given, fully to God. I don’t doubt that, yet, in these difficult circumstances, was not being driven by brokenness and the spirit and God’s grace. The enemy was taking advantage of that, and of your pride, and driving you away from God.

Paul Lawler: Oh, there’s no doubt. In fact, that anger not only drew me away from God, that anger also created even some challenges in relationships, because it just burned inside of me at that time.

Al Henson: But what happened? What happened in the midst of that, Paul?

Paul Lawler: Well, you know how you can grow sick and tired of being sick and tired?

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: Well, that that was happening to me over a period of many months. One evening, I hit my knees and I just said, “God.” I really came to a place that I believe that the spirit initiated in my heart. I just surrendered. I didn’t hear any audible words, but I had this sense that the Lord, as I surrendered, and in those moments, he began filling my heart with peace, I sensed the Lord saying, “Paul, your son was mine before he was yours, and he will be mine after he’s yours.”

Al Henson: Right.

Paul Lawler: My son didn’t get any better right away. In fact, he got worse. But I had peace. There was a victory in the brokenness. Now, I’m not saying that you have to go through a circumstance like that, to be broken. But I found, in that circumstance, a gift in being broken. I learned something that stayed with me in ministry, and that’s to not run from brokenness, to not run from surrender in circumstance, in all of life’s circumstances. Our circumstances are our classroom, and in this classroom, I learned something that I’ve been practicing through the years, and that’s to embrace surrender to God on a regular basis.

Al Henson: Amen. Yeah. I love that, our circumstances is our classroom. As I understand the scriptures, the work of brokenness is God’s work. It’s us that allows him to do that work, and see, God was trying to do that work. God was trying to bring Paul to the end of Paul. And you were, in your pride, resisting that.

Paul Lawler: Yes, very much so.

Al Henson: Fear was in that, and insecurity was involved in that, also. But you know, we find this in the scriptures. For example David, in the text that we just read, he was resisting God. Psalm 32 will tell us that in these days, David would talk about how his soul was … the voices were roaring inside of him, how he was disquieted, and fear and all of those things, until he ultimately just agreed with God, and gave in and surrendered.
You find, for example, the man Jacob, he’s a beautiful picture of this, how he wrestled with God. He was the conniver, and he wrestles with God. One night, he actually wrestles with the angel of the Lord. And he learned, after a few hours … and it really is a humorous story, but sad, too, and that is that a man would actually externally wrestle with God. But it’s a picture of how we internally are wrestling with God.
But ultimately, God did the work of breaking or cracking his hip, and Jacob finally realized how foolish he was, to try to wrestle with God. And he just gave in and said, “Yes, Lord,” which is another picture of brokenness. It’s interesting, Paul, that at that juncture, God changed his name. Because it was the act of his willingness to become broken before God, that God was working in his life, that God knew would literally then change from the nature of Jacob, and he called him Israel, a Prince with God.

Paul Lawler: Al, I think what you just shared is like this banner in which we all need to see, that really says to us, “Don’t run from brokenness. Don’t resist being broken.”

Al Henson: I would, to bring this back to the heart of God about this, and the importance of it, I would want to draw people’s attention to Isaiah 66:1-3. I’d like to quickly walk us through that.

Paul Lawler: Please.

Al Henson: Isaiah 66:1, God is presenting himself as he is, this powerful almighty God, beyond comprehension. So he says, “I sit in heaven, is my throne.” That’s the universe, the stars or the moon, “I sit above the heavens, as on a throne,” which is pretty huge. And then, “I rest my feet. The Earth is my footstool.” This is who I am.
Then, God asks two very deep, intimate questions, that … in this passage. He says, “Where is my dwelling place? And where is my place of rest?” I want to just make sure we take a moment and think about those two. They’re questions that the spirit of God sort of revelated to my own heart, decades ago.
Now, his dwelling place in the old Testament was the temple. Now, we are the temples of living God. So any fellow brother or sister out there, you have become the dwelling place of God. So that question is answered. You are the dwelling place of God. He lives in you, and you live in him. But now the second question. That’s not enough. It’s not what God wants.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: God says, “Where is my place of rest?” What he wants is to, as he lives inside of us, for there to be no resistance either way, no conflict, no mistrust, no valuing of anything above him, so he can actually sit inside of us, in essence, and go, “Ah.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Just, “Ah.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: A love feast, an internal, resting, love feast, place of rest.

Paul Lawler: Wow, so good.

Al Henson: Paul, these next verses are very hard to embrace. Nevertheless, they are true. Then God says in verse three, he says this, “Okay, you come, and you obey me, and you offer me a lamb. But if you don’t come with a broken and a contrite spirit, and one who fears and trembles at the things of God,” verse two, “If you don’t come that way, then it’s as if when you offer me a lamb, you offered me a dog.”

Paul Lawler: That’s right. Yeah.

Al Henson: Or when you offer other sacrifice, he goes on, like a cow, he says, “It’s if you actually murdered a man.” This really, it really struck me decades ago, that, “Oh my. I can put my offering in the plate on Sunday, or I can bring my offering of attendance to church, or I can offer my acts of kindness, but if they’re not coming from a broken and a contrite spirit, they’re like a staunch, something very worshipfully stinky in the nostrils of God.
So I begin then, many decades ago, four decades ago, 40 years ago, began to say God, “Please God help me. I agree. It helped me to understand this.”

Paul Lawler: Yes. You know he also, in that chapter or in that verse, says that he dwells with one who is humble and contrite of heart. I’ve always thought of that word, humility, as where the heart become sensitive and responsive to God, with a deference for others. And that word contrite, you know, one of the images that comes to mind is how our foremothers and forefathers, when they would kill a deer or a buffalo and then they were taking that leather and pounding it out, and pounding it out with a mallet to soften it, so they could wear it as clothing, so that that clothing, when they put it on, wouldn’t chafe them or cut into their skin, but it would just move with them. It’s a picture of a contrite heart, that what God’s saying is that, “I want you to move with me. Be humble. Be sensitive and responsive to what I’m revealing and speaking to you through my word, and then move with me. Move with me. This is where I dwell.” It’s so true, because these are descriptions of the gift of brokenness that we see that’s ongoing and available to the believer.

Al Henson: Yeah. To me, brokenness is, it’s God’s work. But it is us who allow that to take place, and stop fighting and resisting God. As you were telling that, I was thinking of a passage in Jeremiah, where God tells Jeremiah the prophet, who is the weeping prophet, and with Israel in mind who was a rebellious people, resisting God. They hadn’t stopped a lot of their religious practices. But internally, they were rebellious and resisting God and then also embracing the world.
He says, “Jeremiah, go down to the potter’s house.” And the potter there is a picture of God. And, “Watch the potter, how he spins the wheel,” which is the picture of the sovereign working hands of God. And then, “How he first must mar the clay,” which is another word for brokenness. And the picture that you just used is that, that clay, the Potter, the master, God, he wants to make of us, as the potter would of the clay, a new vessel. It’s interesting. “A new vessel,” it says, “After his own making.”

Paul Lawler: Oh, wow.

Al Henson: We can’t choose and say, “God, now I want you to make me, but this is what I want you to make me to be, other than to be like Christ.”

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: So it’s a vessel of his own making. But first, he has to mar that. So, this principle of brokenness that, it’s threaded all through the scriptures, in many different words, is … The picture that I like to give, Paul, is … and this is audio, so I’m going to try to … If you can just, if you’re listening, if you can visualize, turn on the camera of your mind.
What I want you to do is, I want you to take your will, and picture it like a rubber hose. The will, by the way, is sacred. It was given to us by God. It’s holy. But many times, it does a lot of unholy things, and thinks a lot of unholy things, this will. So we got this will, and it’s a rubber hose, and it seems very flexible and pliable. But most wills that we pick up are not. I want you to picture an iron rod being put through the hose. And now, you pick up the hose and it’s not movable. It’s stiff. This is why God says, in the old Testament, “You’re a stiff necked people.”
Now, the iron rod is the pride of humanity. It’s my pride, your pride, it’s our pride. Brokenness is when we come to a place of the end of ourselves, no pride in it, no confidence in ourselves. And that pride is taken out and removed and replaced with humility and brokenness, so the will is broken, and pliable with God. So it just moves.
One of the things that, before we end here, that … People come to me often and say, “Al, can you explain surrender? What’s it like?” What I will say is, “Every morning in my heart, I get up and I picture a blank sheet of paper. Then at the bottom of that sheet of paper, I just sign, Al Henson.”

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: Now I say, “God, the answer, you fill it out in the course of the day. The answer is yes.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But see, so many people, even those that are surrendered, that think they’re surrendered, “God, if you’ll tell me what you want me to do, then I’ll pray about it. I’ll think about it.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Full trust and full casting oneself up on God, and surrender, is already saying, “Yes, Lord. The answer is yes. Now you tell me what you want me to do, and orchestrate my life today by your spirit.”

Paul Lawler: Amen. That’s so powerful. This is a conversation that we’re, as we’re in, we’re going to pick up and do a part two on brokenness, as well. We’re going to talk about, in the next episode, how to walk in the gift of brokenness, why also, there’s so little revelation in our lives related to not being broken.

Al Henson: Right.

Paul Lawler: So I hope those that are listening today are going to pick up on, where we pick up again here, in part two. Al, thank you so much.

Al Henson: Oh, thank you, Paul. Thank the Lord.

Paul Lawler: Father, we want to take an opportunity to come before your throne and pray for the young man or the young woman listening today, that this may be a whole new concept, a whole new category for them. We pray, Lord, that you would gift them with an increased understanding that leads them more deeply to their designer. And Lord, out of flowing into their designer, the father, son and Holy spirit, that they will flow more fully in their design. God, we pray that you work brokenness, that as a gift, that births the conformity to the person of Jesus.
We pray this, Lord, for the housewife, God, the business woman, the businessman, God, that may be listening today. And pray, Lord, that as he or she is being salt and light in the home and in the marketplace, God, that you will cultivate them, develop them in new levels through this gift of having a contrite, humble heart, trembling at the word of God, in a way that out of the gift of brokenness, an unprecedented level of fruit and kingdom advancement emerges.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: This we pray, in the strong and loving name of Jesus. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 7: Brokenness #1: Victory in Brokenness appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Isaiah 42:1

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Compassionate Hope

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Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler and I’m with Al Henson, the founder of The Compassionate Hope Foundation. And this is Sage Talk. Al, it’s a pleasure to be with you today and-

Al Henson: It’s good to be with you too, Paul and back again with our listeners.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely and I feel that way as well and as we have this privilege of spending time together, our topic today is, what is a servant and taking on the nature of a servant. And as we dive into this topic, I’ve noted this several times, but we both have and share a global perspective because we both have the honor and privilege of serving in different parts of the world.

Al Henson: Yeah, if you love Jesus and follow Him, you have to love the nations and He’ll lead you out among them in some way, somehow.

Paul Lawler: Amen and that’s such a true statement and I think it’s important for us all to be reminded of that. But I was in Asia not too long ago and I was invited to be a part of a conference taking place there. And the pastor that organized this conference is a very influential pastor in that part of the world. And I just observed something that I thought was so unique. He convened these pastors, he brought in speakers from different parts of the world and this particular pastor, even though he was the convener, loved and admired by many, not once was he on the platform. In fact, not only was he not on the platform, the entire conference, he sat on the back row.

Al Henson: Wow.

Paul Lawler: I noticed at times when, during the teaching, he might have his head bowed in prayer just interceding for his fellow pastors. And what I was captured by was this heart of a servant, as he was serving the body of Christ, serving his fellow pastors. And, Al, what struck me is that’s such a contrast from what I often experience, see, and maybe even battle at times as a North American pastor. So it’s with that in mind, you and I talked about a Bible verse earlier today, Isaiah 42 verse 1 and it reads like this, “Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen in whom my soul delights, I have put my spirit upon him. He will bring forth justice to the nations.” Would you mind commenting on that?

Al Henson: Yes, Paul, the subject of being a servant, many books are being written about the subject. It’s now almost always a part of any kind of leadership conference. And what is interesting to me is your story, is that even though there’s a lot of theology and knowledge about being a servant, it’s impossible to become a servant liken to Jesus unless actually Jesus Himself is with the Holy Spirit, controlling our very inner being and its motives and we’re spiritually minded, we’re walking in the spirit. It’s easy to be religiously minded and the carnal flesh be doing a lot of good things. And so just a good foundation as we begin to talk about Christ is this verse because this is God presenting his own son, Jesus, as the servant of God.
I always think it’s important to start with God and when we think about the subject of being a servant, we have the Godhead, we have the triune God, God the father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit, one God, three persons. And as I have understood this in developed in my growth and understanding the trinity, even though it’s far beyond comprehension, is that the Godhead has a will. And the Father holds sacred the will of the Godhead and He declares the will of the Godhead. So that’s why even Jesus, when he comes, says, “I do my father’s will.” And even taught us to pray, “Our father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy will.” The will is the will of the father declaring the will of the Godhead.
But God the Father holds that. The son then, as Isaiah 42 is speaking about, He is the servant of the Godhead. He is the one that carries out the will of the Godhead declared and held sacred by God the father. So that’s why Colossians in the New Testament, in places will teach us that Jesus actually is the creator because this was the will of the Godhead, the world of the father. And so Jesus carried it out and then the third part of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, is the one that empowers. The servant of the Godhead, Jesus.
So when Jesus walked upon the earth, he was conceived of the spirit. I think even in the womb, he was perhaps filled with the spirit and then even as he began his earthly ministry in Matthew 5 it says, “And being filled with the spirit, he went up into the wilderness.” And then even Jesus in John 5:19 says, “I could do nothing of myself. So I saw the father move, there is my commitment to his will. I saw the father moving and then I moved with him.” The other texts, he moved with the father carrying out the will of the father and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul Lawler: You know, Al, as you share this from the Revelation scripture, I’m mindful that in our own context here in North America, in the news the last couple of years or several years, we’ve heard some things about pastors and leaders that really don’t reflect having the heart of a servant. Now, I recognize that could be true of pastors and leaders in other parts of the world as well. But I’m mindful that this, what you’re describing is such a contrast of some of what we see among Christian leaders. Could you share a comment on that?

Al Henson: Yeah, there’s obviously, Paul, we’re all aware of this and it appears that even the news media now want to make sure that they magnify these stories. And again, I want to say that I wouldn’t mention names here, but we love these brothers and we thank God that the grace of God is there as it has been in our own lives when we make mistakes and failures, so we love them. But these kinds of things are indications that we have many in Christian leadership that have not understood, if you want to be conformed to the image of Christ, as your being conformed to his image, you will become a servant and servant is more than just what you do. It’s why you do it and how you do it.
It’s not just the obedience, but by carrying it out in the spirit in you establish both the heart and motives of God in how you serve. And Jesus, when he was upon the earth, ending his time with his disciples in John chapter 20 and 21, very powerful conversation with him and his disciples when he said unto them, “Now as the father, as the father has sent me, now so send I you.” And then now so send I, as the father is exactly in the same manner and the same way as the father sent me, now so send I you. So the servant was sent to walk among fallen humanity, Christ and as he walked among fallen humanity, he came to serve not only the will of God, but the need of mankind.
He was fully the servant, the greater served the lesser, us. And in that same text then you see after he had said, “As the father has sent me, so send I you.” He breathed upon them, representing the breathing or the breath of God, the Holy Spirit and said unto them, “Welcome the Holy Spirit.” They were saying, the same way as I’ve carried out as a servant, the will of God. Now I want you to carry out, as a servant, God’s will, your Lord, Messiah’s will. You are the lights of the earth. You are the salt of the earth, so you will become living epistles as Paul would say, of servants, energized and empowered by the Holy Spirit. One of the ways I express that, Paul is this, Jesus came to die and through his death, burial and resurrection, he birth the gospel.
Now in the same way, we must die. He said deny self, take up the cross, which is an instrument of death. The cross is what puts self to death on a moment by moment basis and then you can follow me. That’s the resurrection. This was the core message of Jesus to his disciples. If you want to be my disciple, you must deny self, take up the cross and follow me. And so as he died to birth the gospel, then as we die daily, as Paul would say, in Christ, then we, through death and resurrection into the spirit, we proclaim the gospel. Listen, this is really important, proclaiming the gospel. You cannot speak and proclaim by word of mouth the gospel that you’re not first living.

Paul Lawler: That’s right, yes.

Al Henson: It will have no power and this is what we have often in the kingdom. We have those who are proclaiming the good news of Jesus, but their lives do not demonstrate the gospel and the purest look into the gospel is a servant, one moved by God’s love or moved by God’s wisdom.

Paul Lawler: You know, Al, I’m going to come back and just reference the American church and I’m aware she’s a church that has a lot of activity. But this comes to mind. Great activity can be a camouflage for great iniquity. And I know that sounds a little, maybe a little edgy to say that, but it seems in light of what you’re saying and sharing and what the scriptures teach, that that servanthood, taking on the nature of a servant, you were commenting a moment ago, it’s not just what we do, it’s the spirit in which we do what we do. That it seems that there’s something that for some of us is lost. And that is getting back to this nature of servanthood.

Al Henson: Yeah, always a good question is, what moves you? And what moved Jesus to servanthood was love. The love for God, love for the father, and love for humanity. And in that love, and when you think of practically how this works out, I’ll just share a personal testimony as a pastor. I was trained to think of a vision of becoming a champion for Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yes, that was the school you went to correct?

Al Henson: Yes, I was trained in that kind of way and there was nothing wrong with being visionary. And there’s nothing wrong with knowing that we can all be in Christ, champions. But even though I was desiring to walk out in the spirit, which I was doing at some level, there also was a carnal part of me that really embraced that, yes, I want to be somebody. I want to be recognized in the kingdom. And so there was some ripping and tearing and death that needed to take place in me. But I remember, after planting a church and that I felt our church was waning a bit.
So I thought, “Oh, I need to have another vision message.” And I thought, “I’ll do this on a Sunday night because that’s the group, [inaudible 00:13:57] to come on Sunday night. The key leaders and those who really love the church and love the Lord will come out on Sunday night.” So I had labored for a couple of two or three days really putting this message together, even passionate about it, burdened about it, burdened about the church. And I actually told my wife, Susan, I want to have lunch and then I’m going to go back to the church and just study and pray.
So I went back to the church at 2:00 and there from say 2:00 to 5:30 or so, studying and then decided I was finished. Actually, probably a little proud and I’m ready now. I’m going to turn it loose with the congregation. And so I knelt to pray, got prostrate before the Lord. I didn’t hear the audible voice of God, but the still quiet inner thoughts of God, “Son, what do you think you’re doing?” And I thought I would hear, “Son, well done.” “Son, what do you think you’re doing?” And I knew enough to stop then and my father wanted to talk to me about something, my heavenly father.
Over the course of the next few minutes, 30, 40 minutes it became really clear to me that I wasn’t going to bring a message of a servant. I was going to bring a message of a leader that wanted to see his church grow, his church grow and his ministry grow. And I was going to call the people of God into his vision and God began to rip my heart out, “Son, what are you doing? Why are you doing this?” And so in that hour, I repented, another time of brokenness in my life. And I went out that night and I delivered this message.
The message was, “You’re all priceless treasures. You’ve all been born of God and God has a purpose and plan for your life and this pastor has come to serve you. And I want to know who you are and God’s purpose and plan for your life and how can that fit in for all of us, collectively, together, together have the vision of God and how can I help you to succeed at what God has called you to do.” And it just, that really changed my pastorial ministry.

Paul Lawler: Yeah, that is so powerful. You know, Al, as you shared that, a thought that occurs to me, that one of the ways that we would know we’ve moved out of taking on the heart of a servant is when we get more fascinated with the what, than the who. When we’re more fascinated with the activity or the results and I mean results that are really more about our carnal nature than we are captivated by Christ himself.

Al Henson: Yes and this picture of Christ as this beautiful servant. It’s Philippians 2 and what amazes me is that the God of the universe would come and serve us and become our servant. And this is what Philippians 2 calling us, “Let this mind be in you.” Philippians 2:5. The same attitude in you, “Which was in Christ Jesus.” And then began to proceed about what was in his mind. And his mind was, he was God, being in the form of God, thought it not rather to be equal with God, but he made of himself no reputation. And if you really understand what he’s saying, he who is God had the rights of deity and to come to the earth, he had the right to say to all humanity, “Serve me, bow before me and do what I tell you to do.” He stripped himself of all of his rights, not of his deity.
He remained God, but he laid down all of his rights because in his own mind he summed up that he loved God, the father and what God, the father desired was to be reconciled to his creation. Creator to creation and what humanity, he saw in humanity enslaved in sin and humanity needed to be forgiven of that sin and set free from that sin, so that it could come into Christ and be the righteousness of Christ and be reconciled to God. And he said, “Loving God and loving mankind is a higher priority than my own rights as deity.” So he stripped himself of all of that and just said, notice the words, and he became a man.
And it says, “And then he became the servant of man and then he served man not only washed their feet, but he served man even unto death and he served man even unto the death of the cross, not an honorable death, but in accursed death.” So he ultimately served to the ultimate and that is laying everything down, even his reputation, his own honor and where he was rejected and reviled of man, Isaiah 53 will say. And when I beheld such love, such beauty, and as God was revelating that to my heart, I thought, “That’s what I want to be, Lord. That’s what you want me to be, to live in this kind of way.”

Paul Lawler: You know, Al, as you shared that, I’m aware that you have a story of something you experienced in Asia and that illustrates this so well. Would you mind sharing that?

Al Henson: Yes, I’d be glad to. Before I do that, I just want to say this, is that as a pastor you think about how do I serve the people? Not, how do they serve me? As a husband, how do I serve my wife? Children are born, how do I serve my children? And you esteem them better than yourselves and you put their interests before your own. This is love and the thoughts of love and so I was teaching this matter of being a servant in an undisclosed country. But there was about 50 brothers and sisters that were present, 40 brothers, 10 sisters for about three days.
And we talked about a servant, some of these same things, only we took about 13 to 14 hours of studying and prayer to look into these things. And it was just wonderful to see what God was doing in the hearts of these brothers as they were understanding. But God had put it upon my heart at the end to do the final lesson just for 10 minutes on the washing of the feet. When Jesus washed their feet. And I knew the culture, that the male was esteemed high and the female was seen as something less than the male. And so I chose an elderly man, who was one of the spiritual leaders to wash his feet first. And even when I began that, they began to think, “How can this be? White America, that the highly esteemed Dr. Al and now he’s washing our feet.”
So the spirit began to reveal to them more at the heart level, what we’d been teaching. Then I took the youngest brother among us, which was even more, “Oh, how can he do this?” And then thirdly, I took one of the pastor’s wives, “Oh, a female.” And I washed her feet and when I was washing her feet, I would have a translator beside me and each one as I was, I would just bless them and speak a blessing over them. And then finally God had put it upon my heart, there was a young lady who had been working in the kitchen all these three days, cooking and serving. She wasn’t a leader in the church, but she had come and served us. And I asked that they bring her out and I washed her feet.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: And Paul, it was hot with the presence of God, the revelation of God. Then something that would probably be one of the top three or four moments of my entire walk with God happened. Very humbling, but very holy. The leader’s wife came forward and was whispering in the leader’s ear. And then the leader came over and the translator said, “My wife said last night at 3:00 God woke her out of her sleep.” So he was thinking about a servant and he said to her, “Tomorrow, Brother Al, your servant, my servant will wash your feet, don’t you let him out of here without you washing his feet.”
And they asked, “Can we wash your feet?” And I actually for a few moments was hesitant and I thought, “Well, that’s pride, but I need to let them do this. I need to let them honor me and honor the Lord.” And so I did, and I was fighting back the tears. The place was so holy. I was thinking of the verse even in Philippians 2 where because he’d humbled himself, “Wherefore God highly exalted him.” And one of the paradoxical principles of God, if we humble ourselves, he will exalt us in due time, in his way and his timing. Then Paul, an unspeakable thing almost happened, I’m hesitant to speak of it. But four or five ladies gathered around and the men gathered around as if they all wanted to be, even though they couldn’t touch my feet, they wanted to wash my feet or be a part of that.
The leading lady, whose hair was bundled up, she took her long hair down. And she began to dry my feet, weeping. I could feel the tears, it was a matter of love and a matter of honor. And it was in that, that I really began to understand the joy that was there. The fulfillment that was there and as the commercial would say, now this is priceless. And I really thought in that moment, everything I’ve given up, I’ve given up nothing and I really have gained everything. And so I just like an ending to challenge any brother, sister, any Christian leader that is living in the way of Jesus, is the only real way. And if you’re going to be like Jesus, you must be a servant in every relationship and every calling in your life.

Paul Lawler: Al, that is so good and I’m mindful as we as we hear this, that this also is a great bridge for what we’re going to talk about in our next episode. We’re going to talk about the subject of brokenness and how brokenness actually lays the foundation for blessing in the heart of a servant’s life. So we hope those that are listening today will be with us again next week as we fellowship together and also share. But let’s pray as we close today for just the development of a servant’s heart in the lives of those listening today. Let’s pray.
Father, as we’ve been reminded today, Jesus himself left the heavenly realm and became like us in the context of taking on humanity, the form of a servant and he served us. He served the father. He served us and God, as you are working to conform us to the image of the son, we pray, cultivate in us, cultivate in me, oh God the nature of the servant heart that Jesus possessed. So Jesus, we pray, possess us, fill us, dwell in us. We want know Jesus Christ, the power of his resurrection, the fellowship of his sufferings in taking on the nature of a servant. We pray this in the strong name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen.

The post Episode 6: Taking on the Nature of a Servant appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

Hebrews 13:3

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Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler, pastor of Christ Church Birmingham, having the opportunity to serve Christ for over 31 years in pastoral ministry. And I’m with Al Henson today, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, and also one who served as a pastor for over 45 years. And this is SageTalk.
As you join us today, we’re going to take a slightly different approach to today’s broadcast. This Sunday is International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church. And so, we’re going to dedicate our broadcast this week to exploring and journeying into this topic together. And as we do, I want to remind you of a couple of things that I think are really important for framing our conversation. First of all, there has been recently, a 14% rise in the number of Christians persecuted around the world in this day and time. And then, secondly, according to Open Doors, one in nine Christians experience high levels of persecution worldwide. And this is sobering statistic. But every single day, according to the research of Open Doors, 11 Christians die, they’re martyred for their faith.
Now, Al, as I’ve noted, I will note from time to time in these broadcasts, we both spend time in different parts of the world, and much of that time is among persecuted believers, and I think even more so in your ministry. And there’s some observations I’d like to share today. And I’ve been present with you in parts of Asia where we’ve been in rooms with a group of… a gathering of believers, and you’ve asked some questions that have… the responses have really pierced my heart.
One of those questions is… I’ve been with you in a setting, I think there were 60 believers gathered, and you asked the question, “How many of you have been in prison for your faith?” And half the hands in the room went up in the air. And then, you asked this question, “How many of you have had a husband, a loved one, martyred, killed, because of their testimony of Jesus Christ.” And I would see five or six hands go up in the room. I’ve watched you weep with these people, precious people. I’ve watched you hold their hands. I’ve watched you walk with them as a brother, as a spiritual father. And Al, it’s moved my own heart, what I’ve witnessed, both in them and in you.
And as the founder of The Compassionate Hope Foundation, I’m mindful of your investment in many… so many of these lives around the world. And as we’re on the eve of the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church, would you share, from the scriptures and your heart, today, around this topic?

Al Henson: Thank you Paul, and certainly, we really feel… have felt led by God to set aside this podcast to talk about, to honor, and to remember, and encourage you, our brothers and sisters, to stop with us and ponder and consider our brothers and sisters across the world, even today, that are suffering for the Lord, Jesus Christ. And as you said, on this day, there will be 11, that will be martyred. And then, tomorrow, there will be 11 more that will be martyred based on these statistics.
I always love to be guided by scripture. I love to hear what brothers and sisters will share, but I love if it’s guided by scripture. And so, Paul, I’d like today, for our conversation to be guided by the word of God. And if you’re listening, we’re going to turn to the book of Hebrews in chapter 13 and verse three, one simple verse. But it says, in Hebrews in chapter three, of 13 and verse three, “Remember the prisoners, as if chained with them, those who are mistreated, since you yourself are in the body also.” When I look at those… this verse of scripture, I see three components to the verse that can guide our conversation. The first component is the component of the word ‘remember.’

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And God is exhorting us. It’s not written in the commandment. But it’s a strong exhortation to us as followers of Jesus to remember. And the word ‘remember,’ here, has more than just, “Think about it from time to time,” but really let this be something that you’re constantly aware of. And the ‘remember’ means to walk into it enough to be able… when you remember, you just don’t remember the persecuted church. You should be able to know stories.
And one of the things we’re going to suggest at the end is that you take time to find materials and to read updated stories and go on the internet and find the articles, things that you can read. Because that helps you to remember. It helps you to then… in this kind of remembering, to be touched. And so, this verse talks about remembering, I think we have to do what we need to do and going, praying, reading, being around those who have touched the persecuted, like myself, until it helps us to truly remember. It’s not a remember to give just a thought of… emotional thought, but it’s a remember to… calls us to some kind of action.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because in the latter part of the verse, it speaks about action. So the first part is remember. The second part of this verse is the who. And the who, here, speaks about those that are in prison, specifically, but it says anyone who has been persecuted or distressed in any kind of way… so persecution goes way beyond just imprisonment.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely.

Al Henson: Obviously, the more intense one is martyrdom, as you mentioned. And, as a brother, I have, in my 30 something plus years walking among the church in persecuted countries, those that I have prayed with, those that I have mentored, those that I have taught the word of God, and loved like a Paul would love a Timothy or a Paul would love a Silas, 19 of those have been martyred. And so, I have helped the widow of my brother. And a part of the work at CHF is to… James says, “Pure religion and undefiled, is to consider and to serve and to help the orphan and the widow, especially the widow of a martyr, I would think.”
So CHF, us, we’ve had the joy of making sure that widow had food to eat, making sure that widow’s children had what they needed to eat, and to educate and I was… through the years, even this morning, and I live with this daily, Paul. Even this morning, I’m getting messages and pictures from a 24-year-old young man who we met at the age of 12 when his father and his mother, who were birthing Christianity, and his older brother, his entire family was martyred, except for him. And if he had been with them, he probably would have been too.
And he was taken into one of the leaders in this area, in this country, into one of their homes of hope at the age of 12. And he has been… he grew up there, got cared for, a good education, and mentored, and developed. And then, he didn’t go to college, but he wanted a vocation, and so, he was trained vocationally for seven years in motorcycle repair and car repair and equipment repair. And then, in his last couple of years, “What do you want to do, son?” “I want to go back and take my dad’s place.”

Paul Lawler: Mercy of the Lord.

Al Henson: And now he has. And because of his youngness, we advised him… because now, where there was no… his dad was the birthing of Christianity in that region. And now, there are 23 churches. Two or three of those may have a building, but most of those are house churches. And so, we’ve advised him, helped him to buy a motorcycle, gave him a thousand dollars to start his business, so he’s self-sustaining. And he’s now going from church to church. Because he’s had more bible training than… and depth, than most of these pastors.
But he’s trying to help them to birth children’s ministries, he’s helping them to birth youth ministries, and he’s taking the teenagers and developing a worship team among the teenagers. And then, while he’s doing that, without them knowing it, he’s encouraging and equipping the pastors as a younger brother to older brothers in the Lord. And so, this morning, I’m getting pictures from him, and I just write him back and say… He calls me dad. Because he lost his dad, “Dad, just wanted you to know what I was doing.” And I say, “Son, I’m proud of you.”

Paul Lawler: That’s so powerful.

Al Henson: And, “Dad, I love you, dad.” And I tried to call him, and he wouldn’t get through because of the signal of where he is weak, but this intimate relationship with the persecuted. This morning again, we’ve had a brother that in January… Where the gospel is permeating is where the persecution happens most. And this brother, in January, was imprisoned, and we’ve been… since January, taking rice to his wife and his children. People have been giving for that and caring for his wife and his children.
And after a month or so, they let some of the pastors visit him. We were able to carry him a good meal and carry him medicines. But I’ve got pictures of him with his feet chained. We heard stories of him being in the stocks and with his hands in the stocks, his feet in the stocks. And sometimes they won’t even release him to relieve himself.

Paul Lawler: Mercy.

Al Henson: And they’re trying to get him to sign a document to deny Jesus Christ. And he would not. And so, we’ve had stories of how they electrically shocked him.

Paul Lawler: God have mercy.

Al Henson: And he would not sign the documents. And the good news is that I got the message this morning. At 4:30 PM, their time, which was 4:30 AM our time, he was released.

Paul Lawler: Thank you God.

Al Henson: But we saw the pictures. The skin of his family’s dark brown. When he went in, he had a dark brown skin. It’s almost white now. And he was healthy.

Paul Lawler: And I saw this picture too.

Al Henson: Yeah, healthy. And now, he’s just bones, skin and bones. I think, I don’t know all the details… I think part of the releasing is, they’re afraid if they kept him, he would die and his death could then become something that would bring enough attention that it could be difficult for them. But yet, they received a picture this morning, him standing with his wife. He’s back home with his family and his kids. We rejoice over that. But Paul, these kinds of things are happening. And this is just today. These pictures coming, I have thousands of stories and hundreds of stories. But I thought today I’d just share what I experienced today-

Paul Lawler: Absolutely.

Al Henson: … and the back stories to those, brother, remembering these.

Paul Lawler: As we remember, I’m just so aware where our relationship began. First, certainly out of mutual sharing and our journey together in Christ as well as in our respective ministries. But there is also a story related to the persecution the church is going through in many parts of the world that I think’s relevant for today.
And that is, Missy and I, we were serving… and I can name the country on this one, this was a public story. We were in India, and we were a part of sharing the gospel and working with a team planting new churches. And a pastor came to us and wanted to eat a meal with us. And we shared a meal, and he shared… this is a number of years ago. He said, “Paul, have you heard about the persecution in Orissa?” And I had. There were 271… might have been 272 Christians that were martyred in Orissa state. And then, he shared with me, the following. He said, “We have the orphans of those martyrs. We have the children. And we need help taking care of them. Would you help us?” To which we said, over dinner, “Yes, we’re not sure how, but we will.”
But when we… We both went to sleep that night, and then I woke up about 4:00 AM, and the spirit of God just fell, and I began to weep for these children. Missy heard me weeping. She got up out of bed, came around the bed, sat on my knee, and began to weep. She knew why I was weeping. I knew why she was weeping without a word being spoken. And we knew that God was saying to us in that moment that, “Care for my children.”

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: So in those moments, we not only became responsive to what was happening with those children in India, but we became… God birthed a vision in our heart to team with you in birthing two homes for children, homes of hope, The Patricia B. Hammonds Homes, which we named in honor of our late mom… my late mom, my brother, Patrick, and I. And Al, I’m sharing this because out of the blood of those martyrs, God birthed a catalytic movement in our own heart to care for the least of these among the persecuted. And I’m just so aware that as you shared that story of that 12 year old boy that was in one of the Homes of Hope, who was not only provided for, but he’s discipled, and he grows up, and now he’s influencing serving the cause of Christ.

Al Henson: Well, we’ve always known, it’s always been true through church history, that wherever persecution is taking place, you will see and experience the greatest growth in the kingdom. And I believe the answer to the reason why that is, is because their willingness to suffer for the cause of Christ and suffer for the name of Christ, authenticates true faith.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because if it was just some religion or some do’s and don’ts, then they would not be willing to suffer like this. And I think that… excuse me… I’ve been crying here, so I’m choking some. I’m sorry. The other thing is Satan is promoting the false religions. He’s behind those, but true Christianity is… Satan is the enemy to that. And so, that’s why you don’t hear of persecution of other religious people. It’s a good thing just to ponder, consider why.

Paul Lawler: I agree.

Al Henson: And the reason why Christianity… Christians, followers of Jesus are persecuted is because the prince of this world-

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: … hates God and hates the followers of God. And so, persecution is taking place. I think just… I want to share two things in observation. And you’ve seen this, Paul. When you’re around those that are being persecuted, you would think, “Oh, they’re going to be so sad.”

Paul Lawler: I know where you’re going.

Al Henson: “Oh, they’re going to be self-pity, poor me,” or they’re going to be hopeless. And the opposite is true. I have seen the purest joy serving and working with the persecuted than anywhere I have in Christianity.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Actually, I had one of our board members at CHF and one of our key donors was with me on a trip. And we were in a gathering like you spoke about. About 40 or 50 pastors and some of their wives were present. And they were so happy and worshiping for about a day or so. And finally, he comes and says, “Al, I’ve heard you tell all of these stories. I’m struggling believing them.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: So I said to him… I said, “Okay, we’ll see.” Because there were seven brothers in this meeting that I had never met before. I knew where they were from. I’d heard of them, but I’d never met them before. And so, I ask our leader there… Between some of our sessions, I ask, “Could we gather these seven?” I gather them out back where it was a little cooler. Inside that room was hot, but we gathered where it was a little cooler under a tree and a breeze. I remember feeling really good to be cool. And I said, “Okay.”
And I looked at my brother, the board member, and I said, “Okay, I don’t know. I don’t know these men.” And I was thinking, “Please, God, I don’t want to be made out to be a liar.” But so, I said, “How many of you seven men have been in prison?” And her was what was… they all lifted their hands, all seven of them. And then, when they lifted their hands, they started laughing.
And for them to remember that they had had the joy of suffering for Christ and remembering the lessons that they had learned and the growth that they had had and how God used that to build his kingdom, they were just happy. Even Peter… You remember Peter says, “I rejoice that I was counted worthy to suffer for the Lord, Jesus Christ.” And so, that was… I was saying, “Thank you, God.” Not thanking God that they had suffered, but thanking God that he was authenticating the reality of the suffering of Christ. The second thing that I’d like to say is that being there, watching this, you do see more of the miraculous movements of God, not only in the gospel-

Paul Lawler: I agree.

Al Henson: … but I remember once, I was leaving a scene of the widow of a martyr. Her husband had been brutally martyred about three weeks prior. And I had come to visit her. And all she knew, because her husband had said, “There’s this servant of God that really has blessed my life.” And so, she had… when I heard of his martyrdom, I wanted to go meet her. And I wanted to say to her, “Your husband has spoke of me. I was… I am the Lord’s servant. And I am your husband’s servant. And I am here to serve you and to serve your children. And I represent thousands. And the spirit that have come with me, you are not alone.”
And that’s the whole story. I won’t take time to tell, but I want to tell the story after that to tell you how God’s spirit moves miraculously. We knew we were risking ourselves to go into this region of the country. And so, we leave. And three or four kilometers away, in the vehicle we’re traveling in, I’m sitting in the back, and up front is our national driver and our national translator. So they’re nationals. And three vehicles stop us, and always, our national driver… this had occurred before, but he would always be able to get out. Because they wanted documents and do that and not let them look in the vehicle.

Paul Lawler: You were talking about officials?

Al Henson: Officials, yeah, and they were heavily armed. But two of them come past him, and one comes over to the window and shines the light in. And he says something to the translator in their language. And they chat just a moment. And then, he brings his light around the back of the vehicle and around me. And I realized his eyes never stopped. He never saw me. With a light on me, looking straight at me, he never saw me. And so, within a few minutes, we were on our way.
And I was thanking God, “Wow.” And so, a few hours later, I called home, and I’m telling my wife, Susan, about this incident. She starts weeping. She says, “You won’t believe this. God, three hours ago… God told me to call everybody I knew, to send messages out, and specifically to pray this prayer, ‘God, help my husband Al, to be visible to those that he needs to be visible to and to help him to be invisible to those that he needs to be invisible to.'” And I said, “Well, thank you for listening to God. God… Tell everybody God heard their prayers.”

Paul Lawler: That’s so beautiful.

Al Henson: So it’s amazing how I’ve watched the healings of God and the miracles of God as well as the moving forward of the Gospel of God around the persecuted church.

Paul Lawler: Yeah, I want to make a statement. I want you to know that I don’t believe it’s literally true, but it illustrates a principle. Somebody once said, “There’s a revelation of God that the persecuted church may have that the prosperous church never will have.”

Al Henson: I believe that.

Paul Lawler: I’m not saying that it’s impossible for someone who’s prosperous not to hunger for God and experience revelation from God, but it is clear, just even by that story that you just shared, that God does move among the poor in spirit.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: And as he moves, he does demonstrate his glory and strength to stand even in persecution and know his joy and his peace.

Al Henson: I know our time is about up, Paul, and we gained a little permission to maybe push this one a few extra minutes. But I want to go to the third part of the verse before you close this out.

Paul Lawler: Okay, all right.

Al Henson: If that’s okay.

Paul Lawler: Sure.

Al Henson: Because the third part of the verse gives us the why. And it says, “There, as being yourselves, also in this body.” So the two things I would like to say… what it’s saying here, remembering these because you are in the body with them. So these are not just your brothers and sisters. They’re not just your fellow warriors and soldiers in the kingdom. They are a member of the body. If you’re the right arm, they may be the left arm.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And if you know anything about the body, if the left arm is hurting, the whole body is hurting.

Paul Lawler: That’s right, that’s right.

Al Henson: And so, this verse is teaching us to cherish them and treasure them as a part of your… of the body that you’re a part of. And when they’re hurting, feel their hurt, and when they are rejoicing, rejoice with them. So that’s the first why in the passage. The second one is a little more hidden, but is to me, the crowning why. “The body, this is Christ the body.”
And I’d like my brothers and my sisters, don’t click out, think with me just a moment. If Jesus, physically, could be upon the Earth today, and if you heard that he had been beaten, and you knew that he’s been released, he’s wounded, he’s bleeding, he’s hurting, and he’s released, and he’s on the other side of the world, after knowing his love for you and that he’s died for you and buried and rose and all that he’s done, all of us would get on a plane and go to the other side of the world and tend to his wounds, just like they did at the cross after he had died.
We know we would. I would. What an honor. I’d empty my bank accounts out to get to Jesus to take care of him. Well, this is… we are, this is, they are the body… the body, I want to say that again, the body of Jesus.

Paul Lawler: Yes, that’s so good.

Al Henson: They are the body of Christ. And this is what Jesus refers to, part of what he’s referring to in Matthew 25 when he says… remember that he said… It’s at the judgment seat, and those to his right he’s bringing into heaven. And they say, “Why us?” And he says, “Well, when I was thirsty, you gave me water to drink. And when I was hungry, you fed me. And when I was in prison…” There it is, “When I was in prison…” so the story that I told about this brother being in prison, the body of Christ was in prison, “And when I was in prison, you came. You came and you visited me. And because you’ve done…” and this is, by the way, the brand of CHF, the heart of CHF. Caring for, rescuing the least of these, that what we… We’re about the least of these. And we’ve done it unto the least of these. And that is the exploited children, the trafficked, the orphaned, the widow, but it is also the persecuted church. And so, this is the why. Oh, so I think, oh… it’s not a burden. What a joy-

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: … that I have had. And I want you, my brother and sister to have, to be able to bind up the wounds of the body of Jesus.

Paul Lawler: Al, that’s said so beautifully and compellingly… and so, as we wrap up today… Let’s offer a few ways that a person could respond to what they may hear the Lord saying today as we’ve shared this time together. First of all, we want to suggest, on your own, take some time to do some reading and research to gain the heart of God… God’s perspective for the persecuted church. And some of this could involve some Google searches, Voice of the Martyrs, Open Doors, also look at their resource pages around books and reading that you can do to inform you in terms of the pulses of the persecuted church around the world.
Now, maybe I should’ve mentioned this one first, but the next one is pray. Pray for the persecuted church. When you pray for people… pray for a group of people, you often also glean the heart of God in that. So I want to encourage you to get in prayer and intersession for our persecuted sisters and brothers around the world. And then, the third this is there are many dynamic organizations that are ministering to, supporting, undergirding the persecuted church in different parts of the world. But I do want to mention the one that we’re affiliated with, and that’s the Compassionate Hope Foundation.
And I too… you’ve heard Al share stories, but I too have been on the front lines with Al in parts of the world, where, as we shared in the opening… where ministry is happening among the persecuted with children, adults, really people of all ages. And you can make a difference in helping resource the clothing, the feeding, the materials that are needed for propagating the gospel and sustaining and strengthening the church and discipling people of all ages to impact their culture and cultures. And so, you can go to CompassionateHope.org and not only find out great information about all that God is doing through Compassionate Hope Foundation, but you also can see that there are ways to give and support this ministry as lives are touched and transformed.

Al Henson: I might say there, Paul, they won’t find a lot on our website about the persecuted church. The reason being is that we can’t say much publicly. And so, if they go, there’s ways to give there, but if they just would leave their information and like to speak to someone further about how they could be involved, would be very helpful also.

Paul Lawler: That’s excellent, and a good point of clarity. And then, the final thing that we would mention as well is, in your lifetime, seize an opportunity to go with some gospel centered organization and serve on the front lines alongside our persecuted sisters and brothers so that you have and opportunity to open your own eyes in a special way, to be informed and empowered to serve this cause for Christ at such a time as this. Al, as you’ve taken the lead in so much of our conversation today, share closing comments and our prayer, closing prayer today for our time together.

Al Henson: I think I’ll just pray. Jesus, we love you, Lord. And if we love you, we love your body, and so we also love the church. And we love our brothers and sisters. And we take time, even now… And brothers and sisters you’re listening, would you just join me in praying? We take time right now, and we lift up our brothers and sisters around the world. You see every one of them right now. You feel their pain, you feel their suffering, you weep with them Lord. And we ask that your grace would be upon them and your comfort would be upon them.
And we pray, father, that you would protect where it is your will to protect and you would provide where it is your will and way to provide, oh, father, we pray for our brothers and sisters that are around the world. And then, we pray, father, for each brother and sister that’s listening, Lord. We pray, father, that you would take what has been shared, and we pray that you would touch their heart with your heart for the persecuted church. We ask this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

The post Episode 5: Praying for the Persecuted Church appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

I John 1:3-4

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Hi, I’m Paul Lawler. I’ve had the privilege of being a pastor for 31 years. I’ve served Christ Church Birmingham as the senior pastor since 2007. I have the privilege of sitting here with Al Henson, who has been a pastor for over 40 years, and is currently serving since 2000-

Al Henson: 11.

Paul Lawler: We’re going to continue our conversation today around the topic of transformation. As we’ve journeyed together the last several weeks, we have talked about the relationship between spiritual fathering, spiritual mothering, and transformation as it relates particularly to the presence of God, the manifest presence of God in our lives and in the lives of others. We’ve recognized that this is strategic for not only our development but also the development of people that we influence and serve for the glory of God. As we pick up this conversation today, Al, I’m going to turn to you because we’re going to move a little bit today into the role of spiritual fathering, spiritual mothering, and transformation as it relates to the richness of Christian fellowship. May I-

Al Henson: Yes, yes.

Paul Lawler: … pass the baton to you?

Al Henson: As we have people listening in to these podcasts, some of the responses we’re getting, even in the last several ones, Paul, on a transformation, as you have said, people that are saying, “We are understanding a bit of how that’s done now through coming into the presence of God, but how do you actually walk that out? How, as a follower of Jesus, do I practice that so that I can have transformation and so that I then also, my goal is to become a spiritual father and a spiritual mother to father others to be transformed enough that God would entrust me with the spiritual fathering or mothering of others?”

Al Henson: We’ve been taking a passage each time. If you remember back, 2 Corinthians 3:18, getting into the presence of God, we must unveil our face, our very essence without fear, just come into the presence of God. Romans 12, tying into that, then when we come into the presence of God unveiled, the first thing is just say, “God, here I am.” Romans 12:1, Paul is begging us by the mercies of God to present ourselves to God, and so when we come into the presence of God, we just come. I love the song Just As I Am. I come in just as I am. God, here I am, beautiful mess, and I want to be like your son, Jesus, because I know that’s what you want me to be like.

Al Henson: Well, 1 John gives us the same message with different words. I love 1 John because it gives us some of the treasures and the values of living and walking this kind of way. For John, you know, as one of the major apostles, and verses 1 and 2, I won’t read it, but verses 1 and 2 of 1 John, he gets very intimate about Jesus. He said, “We heard him, we touched him, we felt him, we beheld him.” It’s almost like he steps away from the humanity of Jesus for a moment and says, “This life, this divine life was manifested to us.”

Al Henson: Now, verse 3, which I will read, “And that which we have seen and heard, we declare unto you that you may have fellowship with us. Truly, our fellowship is with the Father and with his son, Jesus Christ.” What John is saying here, that the intentions of God and the gospel, and the power of the gospel in changing us, bringing us into Christ, bringing us into the body of Christ into one another; and being able with the veil ripped to individually and collectively get into the presence of God, that if we do that, then we have a deep sense of participation in life, in hurt and pain. We mourn when they mourn, we weep in the weep, we rejoice, we know each other, we’re vulnerable. This matter of openness and transparency is not only to be toward God but to be toward our brothers and sisters.

Al Henson: In verse 7, this is the phrase we want to focus on, “But if you walk in the light, as he is in the light, then you can have, truly, you can have this kind of intimate fellowship with one another.” The Greek word here really is talking about a deep experiential intimacy, spiritually, soulish, in the soul area with one another. Then, verse 4 says this, “I write these things,” John says to you, “that your joy might be full.” Brother, sister, you listening?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: How would you like to live and walk in the fullness of joy?

Paul Lawler: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So good.

Al Henson: The fullness of joy, even Psalm 16:11, this great man of God, David, David says, “In his presence is the fullness of joy.”

Al Henson: John is actually saying, “In the presence of God and in the presence of brothers and sisters, unveiled, vulnerable; walking in the light.” That’s what it means, walking in the light, which means both walking in vulnerability, honesty, and openness before one another, but also walking out in the truths of God.

Paul Lawler: It’s kind of like an unveiled face with one another. Keep going.

Al Henson: Then, this is the way transformation takes place, and our lives, it’s not just being transformed, now we’re actually experiencing the joy of the Lord.

Al Henson: Nehemiah would say, “Yeah, enjoy the Lord. It’s where your strength will come from.”

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Paul said, “Today, we want to take this with the other texts that we’ve had, and you and I, perhaps, share some stories of our walks with God and our own transformation, and with others that could help people practically think through how this has happened and how it takes place.”

Paul Lawler: You know, I think I would begin with an example with a group of men that I journeyed with for a period of time in a discipleship group. We had some study material, a lot of great studies out there and we utilize that faithfully, but we began to notice something. We began to notice that in our prayer times as people begin to open up and pray when we would begin the study, they were getting a little longer. As those prayer times got a little longer, there were these moments where the Lord was making his presence known among us. We got to where, without meaning to, sometimes we would pray for an entire hour, and the study, we might or might not get to. That wasn’t intentional. I’m not saying that that’s prescriptive always, but that’s what we did.

Paul Lawler: Well, as the presence of God, as we’ve been talking about, became tangible in our midst, there was an evening where a brother, he began to weep. We knew it was something that the Lord, in a very loving way, was putting light on in his heart. We just gathered around him and just waited for him to compose himself. He opened up and shared something that he had gone through actually decades ago that was very deep, very personal. It had marked him. He had battled keeping that secret and the shame in which the enemy had also sewn into his life, how he was so bound up, it crippled him spiritually.

Al Henson: But at that moment, he was walking in the light.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: He was unveiling his [crosstalk 00:09:13].

Paul Lawler: Then as he began to share, and as you’re sharing, the very light of God is touching him. He puts it in the light. He shares it openly with his brothers. As he did, those men took such a gracious posture of listening, then gathering around him, and praying over him.

Al Henson: Would you say, Paul, that this immediately brought about a deeper, intimate presence of God?

Paul Lawler: Oh, there’s no question. In fact, not only was every … every man in that room was marked by the indelible moment of what was happening in God’s presence.

Al Henson: Holy, holy.

Paul Lawler: It was holy, but in addition, I have witnessed this particular man, who shared his life, since that moment, it’s just a story of a captive being set free through the power of God in the midst of fellowship in Christ with one another.

Al Henson: Amen, amen.

Paul Lawler: Because his life has never been the same.

Al Henson: What a story.

Paul Lawler: This is a highly educated person who is a teacher, that it transformed his walk and it affected other people in a God-honored way.

Al Henson: Probably every man in that room remembers that time.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely.

Al Henson: The point they remember is not necessarily what the man said, but the point they remember, God is with us.

Paul Lawler: God.

Al Henson: God, it’s about God.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: There is where worship really deepens, ah, God. I was thinking as you were sharing that, sort of a sister passage with 1 John is James 5, which says “If we confess our faults one to another and pray for one another, then God will heal.” The idea of confessing our faults was this is what he did.

Al Henson: It enabled you, brothers that were present, to know better where he needed to be loved, how he needed to be loved, how to pray for him, how he needed to, his feet needed to be washed, how according to Galatians 6, “Bear ye, one … how we need to bare. We had no idea that our brother was carrying such a burden. Now, we know how to supply the spirit and the grace of God in his life to help him to bear that burden.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: This matter, where we’re breaking into today, of walking this out, this matter of getting into the presence of God, unveiling this, your yourself; it’s not just apart from the body of Christ.

Paul Lawler: That’s right, so good.

Al Henson: It’s with the body of Christ. I think, Paul, as you were sharing, I really feel that I’d like to tell a story about how I allowed this to function in practice as a father and as a husband, and how it affected my family, our family life, and our children; this matter of the presence of God. I had been thinking about this and been getting to enjoy in my late twenties, a deeper, ever-growing presence of God and thinking about my family. I was reading 1 John about walking in the light and I thought, “You know, I’m really not walking in the light with my wife and my children as I am with you, God.” I thought, “I don’t want my children to not think highly of their dad, but if I began to tell them some of the truth … The context of all of this is when we begin to move with others in the light, we need to speak wisely and appropriately at the appropriate time with the appropriate people.

Al Henson: Paul, I went home one evening, and it was back in the day when you were pastor, you had to wear your coat and ties. I remember that because the tie is going to be important in the story in the moment. But, I come home, we have a nice dinner, as we did. The family talking about the family some, just sweet unity. My children were, my daughter would have been eight or nine years old, my middle son would have been five or six, and my youngest son would have been about four, so these were smaller children. As I had done times before we, I said, “Can we just gather in the living room in the floor. Dad has some things he’d like to talk about.”

Al Henson: The family was open to that, so we come over, and I said, “Today,” to my wife Susan and to my children, I said, “I’d like to talk to you a little bit about the kind of conversations I have with God sometimes about your daddy.” I just opened up my heart and begin to tell them that often I tell God how selfish a daddy I am. I used a couple of illustrations where, “You’ve seen me do this or that and I want you to know that your dad has areas of selfishness.” I talked about pride and talked about how I let my pride hurt your mother from time to time. My pride, only by pride comes contention and conflict. This went on for a few minutes.

Al Henson: The more I opened up like this, the more tender my heart got, and the more I became grateful for such a gracious God. I found myself prostrating myself before God in the Jewish kind of way, where I’m on my knees, and my head is down into the carpet, but I’m not laying flat, flat on the carpet. I just start praying out loud, the kind of prayers I’d often pray privately about being a husband and father, just crying out to God, telling him how much I loved my wife, how much I loved my children, and how much I wanted them to walk with God and be godly. I needed your help, God, to be the kind of father that ought to be, to love my wife as Christ loved the church, and to be the right example of the heavenly Father. I just poured my heart out.

Al Henson: Next thing I know, Paul and brothers, sisters, you listening; on one shoulder, I felt my daughter. It was as if they wanted to get as close to their dad as they could. On the other shoulder, I felt my middle son. My littlest son didn’t know where to go, he couldn’t find a place, so he crawls up underneath me as I kneel, between my face, my chest and in my legs. I could hear Lacy, “Daddy, you’re not such a bad daddy. You’re okay, Daddy. We love you, Daddy. You’re a good daddy, you’re a good daddy.” They were trying to comfort me-

Paul Lawler: Precious.

Al Henson: … because they knew that I was sorrowing, repenting, and sorrowing before the Lord. I’ll never forget this day, and I’ve used it many times in many contexts. But then, my youngest son, he was four years old, pulled my tie, “Daddy, God’s here. Daddy, God’s here.” I knew at that moment that what I shared in the last podcast, my children, who were tasting the world and thinking the world was good; now they were tasting God, and now they had something that was really good to compare with the world too. My children, I’m glad by the mercies of God and the grace of God, to share that all of my children are walking with God-

Paul Lawler: Praise you, Lord.

Al Henson: … in a deep way. You know them, Paul.

Paul Lawler: Precious children.

Al Henson: Several of them are leading ministries in the Kingdom. Practicing this unveiling, as you become more and more saved with God, ultimately, the hope is, is that you can become walking in the light, as this passage, with your brothers and sisters.

Paul Lawler: You know, Al, as you share that, there’s a couple of things that come to mind. One is that it seems that we grow better in circles than rows. The reason I make that statement is because so much of what we see in the New Testament, particularly here in 1 John 7, is that the life and the practice of life is to get heart to heart. I’m not saying, you know I’m not in any way saying that anything’s wrong with sitting and listening to a sermon or being a part of a worship gathering. That’s not the point. But, the point is, is that our experience of Jesus is not full-orbed unless we genuinely get in fellowship with one another, that where we’re first in fellowship with Jesus. Out of fellowship with Jesus, we’re walking in light and we’re walking in koinonia, fellowship with one another in a manner that we can get close enough to hear each other’s hearts.

Al Henson: You mentioned at the beginning that I’ve been pastoring for over 40 years, and I’ve watched God use my public speaking teachings in many different kinds of ways, but nothing compared to the times that I’ve been in smaller groups of believers, nothing compared to times I’ve had one or two, or nothing compared to the time that I said, we had people living in our home that we just took time to mentor them, to love them, to go heart to heart with them, life to life with them. My experiences run from some of those who were deeply wounded and those who have been exploited to pastors of churches of 6000 to 7000 to CEOs of large corporations. What I have found is it makes no difference. We all need Jesus-

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: … and we all need to get into the presence of God. I’ve not used a different practice with any of them. It makes no difference if they’re exploited, or they’re a CEO of a corporation if I can get them to Jesus. When I use that phrase, it’s really into the presence of Jesus.

Paul Lawler: You know, a number of years ago, you were instrumental in bringing a group of Christian leaders from an area of the world where they’re heavily persecuted. You were influential in bringing them to North America. I had a privilege of sitting with them. I remember the day we sat together, I pulled my notepad out. I was aware that they had been very effective in reaching people for Christ and discipling people. I had my notepad out, I’m a linear thinker, I’m ready to write down the principles that they’re applying.

Paul Lawler: You said, “Wait a second,” you paused, and one of these brothers began to lead in prayer. These brothers, who have suffered for following Jesus Christ, who love the Lord, love one another deeply; began to cry out to God, not only for themselves but for one another. They ministered to one another. There were tears. Most of all, even though there was a language barrier, I was so conscious, we are in the presence of God.

Al Henson: Presence of God.

Paul Lawler: After about 45 minutes, the prayer time came to a close. When the word amen was sounded, you turned to me, and you said, “Now, Paul, what did you want to ask?” I was mindful that something so powerful and so beautiful had just been illustrated before me, brothers walking in the light, interceding for one another, walking in the presence of God. I saw the secret. I saw what I felt that many of us need to see, practicing the life of knowing Christ together.

Al Henson: I remember years ago, to continue to illustrate this, that I loved our Sunday morning services, I loved, even more, our Sunday evening services, and I loved, even more, the Wednesday night services because they were smaller and I could lead more. One of our key, our two key passages were these two, 1 John, practicing it, and James 5. On this particular evening, maybe a hundred people, adults were present. A gentleman walks in the back, as we’ve gotten started, this nice three a three piece suit on, tie. He sits down, very handsome looking man. But, I lead forward. We open up for a share time, and people begin to stand and share a weakness or share a fault, then ask for prayer. Some were standing and sharing a praise of where they had shared and God had answered prayer.

Al Henson: We’d had this family that had been visiting with us. This man stands up and his lip is quivering. He’s trying to get control of himself. He says, “Most of you don’t know me,” and he tells his name. He said, “We’ve been going to church all of our life, but I’ve never been in a church like this one, in a gathering like this one.” Puts his hand on his wife’s shoulder and he says to the fellowship, “Man, I need you to pray for me.” He says, “You see this woman here? She’s my wife, and I can’t tell you how much I’ve hurt her in my pride, how selfish I’ve been, and the pain that I brought her life.” She’s wiping now because she’s wondering who is this man standing up here? You know?

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: We’re all just realizing, like the story you told at the beginning, and it was just so holy and so pure. I invited some men to gather around him over in a corner somewhere and just pray, and moved on with the gathering. We closed the service.

Al Henson: This gentleman in the back comes forward, introduced himself, and he says, “I live a couple hundred miles from here. I’m a pastor of this church, 300 or 400 people.” He said, “I’m so discouraged, I’m so dry, I’m so empty that I drove here tonight, got a hotel room just over here, I have my gun, and I was intending-

Paul Lawler: Oh, God.

Al Henson: … to kill myself.” But, he said, “I’ve been here tonight and I have hope.” The presence of God, he realized that even as a growing pastor, even growing in the Lord himself, and trying to lead his people that he had not really learned how to walk into the presence of God, experience God, and lead his people in that kind of way. He was dry, his people was dry. He didn’t kill himself, praise God.

Paul Lawler: Jesus.

Al Henson: Over the next days and weeks, I spent some time with him and he felt he should step away because of the denomination he was in, they probably weren’t going to accept what he was seeing that was so biblical and so right. Ultimately, he and his wife go to Kansas City. Now, that’s been 30 something years ago and took a church of a few people up to thousands. Just a beautiful, when you walk in to gather, just a beautiful place of-

Paul Lawler: Thank you, God.

Al Henson: … God, God in his presence.

Paul Lawler: Thank you, God.

Al Henson: I can say this, Paul, and I know we need to close, our time is up, and I’ll let you end things, but in my experience, the times, and the movements of God have always come around when people are willing to have, whether in desperation, in faith, in repentance, in both, in a place of grace and safety; they unveil themselves before God. They find the ability to do that one with another, and they are surprised sometimes at the amount of the experiential presence of God that they will begin to experience.

Paul Lawler: Oh, that’s so good and so life-giving. You know, maybe there are persons listening today, and as you’re reflecting on what Al and I’ve shared today, you may have additional questions. We just want you to know, we would love to hear from you. You can contact us at info@SageTalkPodcast.com. We would love to be able to respond or interact with some of your questions or thoughts that you may have.

Paul Lawler: But, we also want to encourage you, if you’re walking as a Christian alone, we want to encourage you to get with a group of believers and journey in some type of discipleship gathering where you can not only bear your heart to God, but you can bear your heart openly with one another. The very presence of God-

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: … which is so life-giving, is at stake and you were designed to be a dwelling place of the Lord. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Paul Lawler: We’re going to close today in prayer and just take a moment to be still before the Lord. You may be driving down the highway, you may be sitting in your kitchen, you may be in your office at work in your company; but let’s take a moment to bow our heads and go before the throne of-

Al Henson: Can I pray? Can I pray, Paul?

Paul Lawler: Please, please.

Al Henson: I’d love to. Jesus, my heart is just so aware that the brothers and sisters that are listening in are embracing, saying, “This is what I want, this is what I need, this is what I desire to bring to the body of Christ and to my brothers and sisters.” Many of you are thinking, “Oh, if I could just get in the presence of God, if I could just see God with my spiritual eye.” Lord, I want them, I want you to help them to know this is not only what you want, but it’s what you desire and what you will help them to accomplish.

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: It sounds scary a bit. It sounds uncomfortable, but I pray that you’d help brothers and sisters, as you clarify things in their hearts, to begin to walk in the light, as he is in the light, that they might have fellowship one with another.

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: God bless each one listening. I pray in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 4: Spiritual Transformation: Leading Others into the Presence of God appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

2 Corinthians 3:18

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Compassionate Hope

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Note: The following is a transcription and may include slight errors or deviations from the actual podcast.

Paul Lawler: Hi, this is Paul Lawler, and I’m with Al Henson, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, and this is Sage Talk. Last week we had the opportunity to talk about a very exciting topic, and we’re going to delve into that same topic today. I’m excited about what we have the privilege of sharing today. We’re talking about the issue of transformation, what Jesus seeks, and is willing to do in the lives of believers. Our perspective on this has been as it relates to spiritual fathering and spiritual mothering, and what God is willing to do and desires for his children.

Paul Lawler: Last week we talked about this beauty of transformation out of 2 Corinthians 3:18 of when men and women are exposed to the glory of God, when they join God, and things that God is doing through his word, through communing with him. There was an observation that I thought about after that broadcast, something I’ve observed as a pastor for a number of years, and is a testimony that I hear from time to time. It goes like this. The presence of God has become real in my heart and life. And when I hear that testimony, what correlates with it is I see greater degrees of transformation in God’s people. Oftentimes, it’s not a sermon. It’s not information, although, that’s important, it has its place. We’re not minimizing that, but we just notice it seems, and this will be hyperbole, but it seems that sometimes it’s as if God does more when a person experiences five minutes of being in his manifest presence then we see happen in 52 Sundays.

Al Henson: Amen, yes.

Paul Lawler: So it’s with that thought in mind that we wanted to journey back to 2 Corinthians 3:18. So let me read it and then what I want to ask you to comment on, again, is these words Paul shares about an unveiled face. So Paul writes. “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.”

Al Henson: Thank you, Paul. Just before I comment to this unveiled face, and some translations will translate it an open face. We were talking about the church there. This is what I find often at best is in our churches we’re not having transformation, we’re having conformity. There’s a world of difference in the two.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: People are simply conforming to some kind of religious standard and thinking that because they’ve conformed to some kind of standard of things to do that they are actually transforming, or spiritually growing.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And that is not true. The thing that as you look at 2 Corinthians 3:18 here, God is glorious.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And this passage is trying to teach us, basically, how to get into the presence of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And you spoke of that it is in the presence of God. David comes to the end of his life in Psalm 16:11. He says, “In his presence is the fullness of joy.” I remember in Moses’ journey with God, God was angered by the golden calf, and the rebellious stiff-neckness of the Jewish people. So God said, “Moses, you take the people and go on. And I’ll linger behind here somewhere and follow you.” Moses just literally said, “No, we will not because the only thing that makes us different is your presence, and we will not go forward if you will not go with us.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: I wish every church would stop this next Sunday morning and say we’re not going to do anything else except ask the question, how can we have the manifested presence of God among us because we, our children, our grandchildren, our neighbors need to come with us into the presence of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: One other thought about the presence of God is that when Christ was dying on the cross, and he cried out it is finished, which means he had done everything necessary now for the creature who was in sin to not only be forgiven and saved, but to now be in Christ and Christ in them, and to come into the presence of God and the Holy of Holies. The veil was rent and it was basically that picture of the veil being rent was now my children, you can come into the Holy of Holies.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And into the presence of God. So, 2 Corinthians 3:18 in a simple way as we were talking about the unveiled face is this crying of God, this beckoning of God and God saying, “Come in, come in,” but when you come in, you’ve got to open your face. And the picture sometimes, even though this is audio and not visual, when I’m teaching this, sometimes, I’ll get a three by three piece of ply board, and I will have someone stand up, and I say for a moment they’re going to be a picture of God. And I’ll hold the three by three piece of ply board up between me and God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And I start my movement toward God, and I ask the question, can I see God? And the answer is no. There’s a veil there. It’s hiding God from you. And then I would ask the question with a smile, can God see me?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And the answer is yes. So this is really not about God seeing you. God sees you.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You’re not hiding from God. Sometimes the operation of sin of fear and shame, fear and shame it’s the reason why Satan, who is the father of sin, created it, or established it this way. It drives us out of the presence of God.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: And here’s the point about the veil. The essence when I have this three by three board is that God is not robbed of seeing me, but I’m robbed of seeing God.

Paul Lawler: Let me just repeat that back to you. God is not robbed of seeing me. I’m robbed of seeing God.

Al Henson: Think about it, Paul, all of us have had this thought.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: My faith, my life would be so much different if I could just see God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Why can’t I see God? Why won’t God let me see him? And what I want to say to my brothers and sisters is just like your physical body has eyes to see the natural things, your spirit and soul have spiritual eyes. “Look unto Jesus,” the Bible says.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: “Seeing him” the Bible says, “and beholding him.” The Bible encourages us to do. So in the spirit realm you have spiritual eyes.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And you can see God and experience his presence.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: So just think about that again. It’s worthy of being said again. So often when people are coming to the altar, or they’re sitting at home reading the Bible and praying, which is not so often for Christians. I think I know why it’s not so often. It’s because they’re doing this, and they’re not touching God, they’re not seeing God, so eventually it’s dry and boring.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But I’ll tell you it’s not for me. It hasn’t been for decades.

Paul Lawler: Thank you, Jesus.

Al Henson: The most important thing in my life is that I can get into the presence of God. And now I’ve learned how to walk in the presence of God, and live in the presence of Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: When I think of that even now thinking about it, Paul, the whole idea is I can get in the presence, I can kiss the [crosstalk 00:10:03]

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: I can hug God. Think about it. I can hug God, and God can hug me.

Paul Lawler: Amen. Amen.

Al Henson: In the spiritual sense, I know that, and I have experienced that. This is the beckoning and the opportunity. It’s why back to what we shared last time you live a life like this, and Moses was glorious, but you can become a more glorious being. Sometimes when I’m preaching to a thousand people, I would say, “You don’t know this, but I know this and God knows this. You’re glorious ones. You’re not shamed ones, your glorious ones, and why don’t you start seeing how glorious you are in the eyes and heart of God, and start living a glorious life.”

Paul Lawler: Yes. Al, as you’re sharing about the church the people of God experiencing the presence of God through an unveiled face, there’s a a brief story that comes to mind in the way God ignites this hunger for his presence. I know we can all quote Blaise Pascal, “There’s a God-shaped hole in all of us that only God can fill.” I was leading a church service a number of years ago, not presently where I’m serving, but in a former place. God graced us one Sunday by manifesting his holiness, his presence among us.

Paul Lawler: I went to the pulpit to preach and I just didn’t say anything. There were about 2-1/2 minutes, maybe a little longer where I just stood. I didn’t say a word. You could hear a pin drop. Children were perfectly still. I didn’t have to give an explanation of what was going on. We all knew that God is here, and let no one just interfere with whatever this moment in the holy presence of God is about, but Al what happened, this is what I want to point to. Not only was that a sacred moment, it marked people. I want God. I want to be in the presence of God. I want to hear God in this way. And isn’t it true that when we have the joy of being in his presence, we long to be in his presence. If something’s awakened in us at a deeper, more glorious, and life-giving level is that not true?

Al Henson: Absolutely. The psalmist says, “Taste the Lord, and see that he is good.” Mom and dad listened to this. You can take your kids to church, you can teach them all of this, and you should, but until your children led by you with an unveiled face in humility and brokenness can come into the presence of God, they’ll have nothing to compare the taste. They’re tasting the world. They’re going to taste it, and to them it’s going to taste good because they’ve never tasted goodness.

Paul Lawler: That’s so true.

Al Henson: But when they, like you just explained that scene, when they’ve tasted the goodness of God, slowly the good taste of the world goes away. You understand? They have nothing to compare it with.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: It’s interesting that if you go back and study Enoch, which was the one who walked with God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And was with God and then was taken up. The name Enoch means the dedicated one, or the trained up one. And that’s what God wants us to do. All the exhortations of parents, it says “Train up your children in the ideas.” Train them up since they will dedicate themselves to God as Enoch did.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: So I was researching this as a dad and, and I thought, “God, what’s the secret here?” There’s nothing said about Enoch’s dad except his name. His name is Jared, and the name Jared means the prostate one.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: The one going down.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: And we could tie that into this patch, he’s the one who opened his face.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Unveiled himself, humbled himself before God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And in essence he released God around him, the presence of God around him. Enoch tasted of God, and dedicated himself to the things of God, and not the things of the world.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: This is why sadly to say with a grieving heart why so many, such a high percentage of our children, and our grandchildren are turning to the world where they’re no longer under our hand to go to church is because they tasted religion, Paul.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: But they didn’t taste Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes, yeah. I see it, too, Al.

Al Henson: Yeah.

Paul Lawler: As we’re sharing on this verse last week, this week, there’s another verse that we realize that the Lord gives great wisdom in terms of how he transforms. On this topic of transformation let’s journey. Some of our listeners know where we’re going, but let’s journey to Romans 12:1-2. So even though there are many that can quote this verse, I’m going to read it where Paul writes. “I appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” That is a powerful verse.

Paul Lawler: I’ve got a question that I want to ask you. This comes out of just our friendship, our journey together through the years. I’m aware, Al, that one of the gifts God has placed in you is the gift of mercy. I’ve watched you use this gift, or God flow through your life, and this gift with the hurting, the broken across cultures in the world. I’ve seen this in Asia. I’ve seen this with pastors who are going through brokenness of different types. I’ve watched this in the ministry of restoration through your life as Galatians 6:1 is put into practice. So I’m mindful that this verse begins with an appeal by the mercies of God. Would you comment on that?

Al Henson: Thank you, Paul. Part of what Paul is alluding to there throughout my ministry, ultimately, one of the expressions of that has been Compassionate Hope Foundation, which as I was walking for decades among the brothers and sisters in Southeast Asia my heart, the mercy gift of mine working with the persecuted church also saw the exploited children, the trafficking, and that was how Compassionate Hope Foundation was birthed because with these brothers and sisters we felt God would want us to address this issue. And now it’s seven or eight years later in 26, 27 different locations, 43 homes, and 800 plus rescued ones.

Paul Lawler: That’s amazing.

Al Henson: And we’re watching lives being changed. Yes, brothers and sisters, if you want to know Al Henson, my public communication gift is exhortation, but the gift that moves me is the mercies of God, God’s mercy, and I certainly have received a lot of that as well.

Paul Lawler: Me, too, brother.

Al Henson: Yeah, finding it easy to explore that. So I want to answer your question in the context of these verses because, Paul, if you’ve been listening this heart of God for us to become like Jesus and be transformed ones, Paul, it’s now laid out in the first 11 chapters. All the doctrine in theology of the sinfulness of man, and the love of God, and the grace of God, and the spirit of God, and the gospel that allows us to walk the way God intended us, and desired for us to walk as being the transformed, the ones, the glorious ones. Now he humbles himself and says, “I beg you. I plead with you. And what I’m pleading that you will do is present yourself to God.”

Al Henson: I’ve heard messages after messages on this text saying, preaching, “You need to be holy. You need to be a living sacrifice. You need to be acceptable. And you don’t need to be conformed to this world, but you need to be proving what is the good.” And people are just weary of trying to do this, worn out, trying in their own heart effort with a genuine heart effort trying to please God. And it’s not what the verses are teaching. It’s saying “Present.” Romans 12:1. I beg you by the mercies of God, and that is this God who is full of mercy, who in his mercy created you, in his mercy desired for you who were in sin to come in and be his son, be his daughter, who by his mercy went to the cross, and died there, bore your sin in his own body, and by his mercy went into the grave, and had victory over the powerful thing called death, and rose up out of that in resurrection power, and then ascended by his mercies into heaven.

Al Henson: By his mercies then the Holy Spirit could descend because now 1 Corinthians 15:40 he had become, and help me that I don’t start preaching, but he had become a life-giving spirit, he who was life, and he who was spirit now added to himself the capacity to give it away. These are the mercies of God. The other point of this about the mercy says the thing that keeps us out of the presence, you’ve heard me say it over and over, is our fear, and our shame that keeps us out of the presence of God. And he sits on the throne of mercy.

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: If you read the scriptures, Jesus is right now sitting on a throne of mercy. So when I come into the Holy of Holies, I’m not coming to a judge. That that will come at the Great White Throne Judgment, on the judgment seat, but now I’m on a seat of mercy.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And that mercy is beckoning me into his presence.

Paul Lawler: Al, what you’re describing sets the captive free.

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: It’s the person of Jesus who in his authenticity expresses his mercy. It’s not religion, in terms of the form.

Al Henson: Right.

Paul Lawler: It’s the person, and you described that so well.

Al Henson: I want to make sure, because we’re coming to the last few minutes of this podcast, I want to tie this all together.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And then you can speak into that, and close this out however you want to. What you’re hearing us say is that God himself is the only being that can transform you.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And to experience that transformation with the word of God in your hand and in your heart.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And being led by the spirit of God you’re able to unveil your face, humble yourself, and come into the presence of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: 2 Corinthians 3:18. When you’re in his presence, Romans 12:1, you’re making a presentation to God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Remember, you don’t have to present yourself perfect. In Christ you’re righteous, but you can present the bad part of you, too, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Just present yourself to God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: This is who I am, God. These are the mistakes I’ve made. This is just who I am, the beautiful person as well as this part that needs to die, and God says, okay, now that you’ve presented yourself I’m going to give you the grace for you to become holy in lifestyle, not in position, but in lifestyle, a living sacrifice.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You’re going to pour your life out because I’m going to pour my love into you. You’re going to pour your life out for me, and for others.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And you’re going to be acceptable, and you’re no longer going to be conformed to this world, but you’re going to be a transformed one because you’re going to learn how to do this.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: When I was 21 or 22, I thought, man, I am fully given to God. And now at 67, I don’t say that anymore. I’ve given all that I know about me, and all that I know about God, but my yieldedness as my trust has grown, and my faith has grown, my yieldedness has grown indeed. For the presentation is ever deepening, and the renewal is ever deepening, and coming more consistent as I’m being matured, and growing, and transforming in the presence of God. So four things. The presence of God. The unveiled face. I come in, and I present myself to God yielded, trusting, surrendered to his hand, the potter’s hand. And then I do this. I renew it day by day, moment by moment in my heart.

Paul Lawler: Yes. You know, Al, as you were sharing there was an image that came to mind, and it was an image of a twin engine airplane. I think a lot of the body of Christ flies on one engine, and that engine they see the word, and realize we have a revelation of God through the word of God, and praise God that we do. “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet. Man shall not live by bread alone, but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” But the way God has designed us to function is in word and presence, word and spirit. And what you’ve described today it’s both engines. Now we recognize there are other elements of walking with Christ, and growing in Christ, but coming into the presence of God where the word comes to life because the spirit of God brings life, and also teaches through the word of God.

Al Henson: I need to say this because we tend to doubt. Dear brother, dear sister, God 10,000 times more wants you in his presence than you want to be there.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: You don’t have to convince God to let you in. He’s already done everything so that you can come. Just go.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: Just as you are. Just go.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: But go with a heart that as you go he wants to change you and transform you. Again, as I said this in the other podcast, and, Paul, you can close this out is if God is using this to touch your heart, and speaking to you ask God, do I have brothers and sisters, or others that I know that would benefit from hearing this?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Please contact them. Send them a link, and encourage them to listen in.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Al, thank you. Let’s take a moment to pray today as we close. Father, we take a moment to pause and pray, Lord, around this matter of an unveiled face.

Al Henson: Yes, Lord.

Paul Lawler: We ask you, oh, God.

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: Work the power of your grace where we would not hide, but we would come before you just as we are. Prone to wander, Lord, we feel it. Prone to leave the God we love, but we would come to you just as we are, Lord, in a spirit of confession, in a spirit of peeling the veil back, Lord, commune with you. Delighting in that Christ has forgiven our sin, that he has taken our sin at the cross, that we are new creations in Christ. And as we live into this unveiled face, oh, God, we pray again, transform our lives in your presence, and through your word from glory to glory. We thank you as Romans teaches us that you’re merciful, and we come before you in the lens of receiving, experiencing the glories of your mercies. And we pray, Lord, let the riches of your mercies touch our lives, renew us, Lord, and that we, too, would be not conformed to the patterns of this world, but transformed by the renewing of our minds for your glory. And it is in Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

Al Henson: Amen. Amen.

The post Episode 3: Spiritual Transformation: An Unveiled Face appeared first on SageTalk Podcast.

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Compassionate Hope

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Aaress Lawless: You and I each long to experience spiritual transformation, but it’s so easy for us to grow anxious when we don’t see more of it in our lives. Hi, my name is Aaress Lawless and welcome to SageTalk. Today on SageTalk, Al Henson and Paul Lawler are discussing God’s desire for us to be conformed into the image of His Son. They’re also sharing how God has graciously given us His provision, which makes this all possible. With over 75 years of pastoring between them and decades of walking among the nations as they minister to the persecuted church and the least of these, let’s join Al and Paul as they shepherd the hearts of faithful servants and Christian leaders in today’s episode of SageTalk.

Paul Lawler: Hello, my name is Paul Lawler, and I’m here with Al Henson, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, and this is SageTalk. Our topic today is transformation. And as we journey into this topic, we’re mindful that many people in the church long for a greater degree of experiencing transformation, seeing transformation. In fact, I would even say there sometimes is a holy angst around this desire to see more, but yet perhaps a holy angst and discontent that we don’t see more transformation.

Paul Lawler: What we’re going to draw ourselves toward, a couple of passages of scripture today. One of them is Romans 8:28-29. Allow me to quote that these verses for you with just a little commentary as we journey together today. The scripture says, “God uses all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.”

Paul Lawler: Now, a lot of people read that verse and they stop right there. And I would submit that when we stop in that place without reading the next verse, we miss the precision of the good that God is seeking to work in our lives through our circumstances. And so let’s now read the first verse and tether Romans 8:29, the next verse, with it, “For God works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Therefore, those whom God foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.”

Paul Lawler: We recognize that the good that God is seeking to work in the life of a believer is conformity to the image of His son Jesus, which is the transformation that we long for, the transformation that’s on the heart of the Father. Al, I know you have some thoughts around this as well.

Al Henson: Yes. I’d like to, Paul, thank you. I’d like to tie this back a bit to our first podcast, so we make the connection. When we talked about fatherhood and motherhood and that being life to life, heart to heart. And what this passage, I’m always looking not at just the knowledge of a passage, but I’m always looking at the heart of the passage. And so we find in this, we find the heart of God the Father for His creatures, His creation. Now in Christ we become a new creation, and His heart is He wants many sons. The phrase you didn’t read at the end of verse 29 Jesus is the firstborn of many sons.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes.

Al Henson: Okay. Now there’s fatherhood.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: His fatherhood there. Jesus is the firstborn, but He’s not the only son that God wants. And so what he wants is He wants each listener to understand that when they came into Christ, they became the sons and daughters of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And so there you are. Yes sir. Yes sir. Don’t let that shame speak to you. The truth is, you are a son of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You are a daughter of God. That is who you are.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And the foundational, the highest priority these verses teach us of our heavenly father is He wants every son and every daughter to be just like Jesus.

Paul Lawler: That’s right. That’s good.

Al Henson: Wow.

Paul Lawler: Yes, that’s incredible.

Al Henson: And you have to also understand and believe that if that’s what He wants, He’s already made all the provision necessary for that to take place.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And that provision is in Christ himself in the power of His death, His burial in His resurrection. And the power of the gospel. That Christ in you has brought in you the power of His death, because there’s things in me and in you, Paul, and in every listener, every brother, sister listening, and there’s things in each one of us that need to die. Selfishness, pride, foolishness, doubting, the shame you feel, this fear that you feel, it needs to die out.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Jesus had no shame. Jesus was not afraid. And so He wants us to be transformed into the image of Christ. And that the image there literally is not like some picture. It’s actually the very essence of the nature of the son Jesus, which is Jesus love. Jesus is wisdom.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And Jesus is righteousness. And I am so grieved and somewhat saddened and may I say, tired of the kingdom now that we think that we can have love without holiness.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And we think we can have holiness without love. And we think we can have wisdom without holiness or love. They can’t. With God, you can’t separate any of these three basic foundational natures of God.

Paul Lawler: It’s so good.

Al Henson: And so I see so much of the kingdom, “Oh, we need to love. And if we love we do this or that.” And I’m thinking, no, if you really love, you’d also be Holy.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And if you really love them enough, you would tell them that what they’re doing is unholy and it’s to their destruction.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Yeah. That’s wise.

Al Henson: And so He wants us to be conformed to the image. And I felt a need to say that because the image of the son is balanced with the very nature of God, which is love, wisdom and righteousness.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And to God, this is the highest priority. And so much of our teaching and preaching today is you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to give more, you need to serve more. And all of that is true. But our people are serving out of weakness. And they’re serving out of their own energy.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And so we have all of this activity Paul going on in the church and they have not learned how to just stop and be.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: See who they are.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And know that their Father primarily wants them to be transformed. The picture that I have to balance this is a statement that you and I use is that our circumstances is-

Paul Lawler: our classroom.

Al Henson: Is our classroom. And so as I step into my circumstances today, I’m stepping into my classroom.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And here’s how we balance this. Well, I’m in this circumstance, I’m going to go to the doing first. In this circumstance, I’m asking the question, how do I wash feet?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: That’s who I am. I’m a servant. Jesus was a servant. How am I washing feet? Is it my wife’s feet, my children’s feet, my brothers, my sisters, the poor, the hurting, wherever. The enslaved, how do I wash feet? And God, as I am washing feet, I’m learning. I’m growing.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You’re transforming me.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: This is my classroom God.

Paul Lawler: That’s good.

Al Henson: And this is critical. So there’s not a time that we are transformed and then a time that we serve.

Paul Lawler: Oh, this is so good. Yes.

Al Henson: We’re actually serving, going and being transformed at the same time.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: So there’s no passiveness in love. There’s no passivity in faith. It’s all activity.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And tying it back, just to share a story, people are learning that I’m the founder of Compassionate Hope Foundation, and there’s this young lady, 29 years old. I don’t think I’ll share her name, but I remember even the context among the nations because she was female and she was young, there were some questions as to could she do this because she was a rescued one. She had been abused and-

Paul Lawler: This was someone rescued out of trafficking?

Al Henson: Yes, yes. She was abused and in many ways. Sold as a child bride, on and on. But she was being transformed. She was growing. And I asked her one day, what would you like to do? What do you think God wants you to do? She started crying. She said, “Nobody ever cared enough to even ask me that Papa Al.”

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: And I said, “Well our God cares and I care. So I’m asking you.” And she poured her heart out about how she wanted to help other girls so that they would not have to go through what she went through.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And so she took in nine girls and I only had three children and I can’t imagine raising nine girls.

Paul Lawler: Wow.

Al Henson: So here’s this 29 year old, in many ways a young believer, but really growing, hungering for God. And she calls me one day and she says this, she says, “These girls need a dad.” She’s single.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: “And I am trying to do all I can by the grace of God to be a mother.” And I said to her, and I’m thinking of single moms right now, even listening in, in the context of your single moms that are listening in, I said to her, “You have in you the Father.”

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: And you also have in you the mothering heart of God because there are times in the Bible that He loves us like a mother the Bible says.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And so you have both. God is both of those at heart. And so I want to say what I said to her. I called her name and I said, “God will help you. You’re what God has.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And what God has in you is enough for these girls. And God will help you. He can transform you into not only the mother’s heart but into the father’s heart.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And then God can use me and others to be a father. And I just think about how in this transformation process that God can pour Himself through us in love and wisdom and righteousness in ways that we can’t imagine.

Paul Lawler: Can’t even imagine.

Al Henson: Can’t even imagine.

Paul Lawler: You know, as you share that Al, there are occurrences that come to my own mind as you share this young lady’s story. She steps way out of her comfort zone.

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: She’s dependent upon the Lord. She’s growing as a Christian. But I have observed so many times that some of the deepest transformations happen when we’re outside of our comfort zone, when we’re depending upon God in a way that we have to. And it draws something out in the power of the spirit through the word of God, the love of God, where He develops us. It’s almost like discipleship on steroids.

Al Henson: Yes. Sometimes people are trying to think this through Paul. And then what you’re saying is so good. I’ll ask them the question. Do I have to grow, transform to go, or do I have to go to transform? And I don’t want to get in semantics of words here, but literally I lean to the last one. Because the commandment is go and the commandment to go is to the person who just came to Christ.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And that goes back to our classroom or our circumstances, the life around us is our classroom.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: So as I’m stepping out of my comfort zone, taking steps of faith to obey God, I’m going.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But I am going fully aware that a lot of where God’s taking me in obeying Him is about my own transformation.

Paul Lawler: As well.

Al Henson: As well.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: Absolutely.

Paul Lawler: You know, I love how you put that. Do I go in order to grow or grow in order to go? And the answer is yes. Yeah. I love how you worded that. And that’s so true. And that was true, clearly with Jesus and the way He discipled, the way He poured into the 12, into the three. In pouring into them, sending them out, I’m sure that they had questions like, “Are we ready for this?”

Al Henson: Yes.

Paul Lawler: And they were developed in that way.

Al Henson: And again, to those Paul that are thinking about mothering and spiritual fathering, this is what I’ve learned in life. There’s a mystery about what I’m about to say. So you’re not going to be able to fully or can’t articulate it. And you’re not going to be able to articulate it. But there is a mystery. I’ve watched it when I sit down with a brother.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Or even when I’m sitting down with my wife Susan, and we begin to talk about Jesus and the things of God, there’s a mystery that takes place and biblically, I understand. It’s spirit to spirit.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: It goes heart to heart, life to life, and then into a Holy realm of spirit to spirit.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And there’s a transformation that takes place. The word I want is a transference. There’s a transference. And I can say watching this, and parents, you need to listen, no matter what you teach your child, no matter what they see you do, the greatest thing you will do is to transfer your spirit and soul to them. And if you’ve ever found a reason to make sure you find healing and to make sure you are set free, and make sure you’re walking in the spirit, it’s your children. Because you will transfer at the spirit level. It’s a mystery about it.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And that’s why often that parents who are deeply wounded and shamed people do shameful things that shame, and woundedness will transfer to their children. But in the same way when we talk about transformation, that’s why we need to be being transformed.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: So that when I am fathering someone or mothering someone, that there is a a mystery about the spirit transfer. And we see that in Ephesians 4:16 in the body of Christ as each member, the spirit is supplying one to another. And so in transformation, this becomes the critical issue.

Paul Lawler: Al, as you share that, I’m drawn with a thought of a particular passage of scripture. It’s II Corinthians 3:18. And so let me read it because it’s one of those key scriptures in the New Testament, and there are many, around the topic of transformation. But it’s where Paul wrote, “But we all with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just from the Lord, the spirit.” I know that when we had talked about this verse at one time, there was some thoughts you had, particularly around that phrase that’s a hinge pin in the verse. It’s like strategic, this whole thing of an unveiled face and how it sets us up to experience transformation from the glory of God.

Al Henson: I’m glad you led us there because if I’m listening, I’m beginning to ask the question. Okay Al, okay, Paul, got you. God wants me to be transformed. How?

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And I can tell you that if you ask people, they would give you a hundred different answers and you’d be confused. And what this passage does is brings us to what I think is the, if I’m bowling, it’s the head pin.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: It’s the head pin of transformation.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And the verse that you just read, and let’s put it in its context so you see the beauty of this. Paul is talking about the law of the Old Testament, the age of the law and the time of the law of versus now the time of the spirit. And he uses Moses as an illustration. How that Moses went to the mountain and he came into the presence of God in the context of the law.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: The 10 commandments.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And again, he came into the presence of God in the context of the law, he comes out of the mountain and he’s shining so much and so glorious. And I remember that movie-

Paul Lawler: Ten Commandments.

Al Henson: The Ten Commandments. Yes. And I always had this picture of Moses as… What was the actor’s name?

Paul Lawler: Charleston Heston.

Al Henson: Charleston Heston, thank you. I’m older so I have to turn to Paul sometimes to help my mind work. But he comes out of this mountain just glowing. And the Bible says that it was hard for the people to look up on him. He had such a beauty and glow about it. And this passage, Paul in II Corinthians three says, “If you think that the law could transform once this glorious, how much more?”

Paul Lawler: Oh yes.

Al Henson: How much more?

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: And so in my twenties I began to think, this is what I want. I need to understand something in this text because I want the how much more.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: If Moses could come out of the mountain glowing, I’d like to come out of the mountain, my feet glowing also.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: But anyway, the question that you ask is in this verse of scripture, and it says, “But when we all,” and here’s the condition, “with an unveiled face behold as in a glass.”

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: No one would ever see God face to face. But we’ll behold as in a glass, in a mirror, we are transformed by His spirit from glory to glory.

Al Henson: And so I want to chat about the unveiled face.

Paul Lawler: Please, yeah.

Al Henson: Just for a few minutes, Paul if that’s OK. and I’d like to take it from a couple of directions. First of all, you need to understand what the face means. When I think of Susan, my wife, first thing I see is her face. That’s who I remember her by.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: When I think of anyone, it’s by the face. And so the face represents the essence of who you are, who you really are. So the unveiling means that when you come into the presence of God actually to get into the presence of God, you must be unveiled.

Paul Lawler: It’s good.

Al Henson: Your very essence.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Now, this is not so easy because the marring of sin has caused our soul to be afraid that if someone really knew us, they wouldn’t love us.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: To be afraid if they knew what we had done, they would reject us. And the shame factor that we feel somewhat dirty and especially in the presence of a Holy, Holy God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And this is why Paul was constantly saying the greatest need is for you to understand the love of God that you might comprehend with all of the saints what is the width and the depth and the breadth and the heighth of the love of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because it’s the knowledge of the love of God that enables you to know that with God you are saved. Perfect love drives out all fear.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You are safe with God. He sits on a throne of mercy, not a throne of judgment.

Paul Lawler: Thank you God.

Al Henson: And He’s a God of grace, long suffering and merciful. And you can come unveiled into His presence. You can come before God and when God sees you, He will see this beautifully, wonderfully created creature that you are now in Christ. He’ll see you righteous.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: You’re justified to be in His presence and when He looks over at the ugly part of you, He understands that He’s already done all that’s necessary to take care of that at Calvary. The selfish part, this prideful part, this part that that drives you into make poor decisions and poor relationships and God, when when you come in his presence, you begin to see not only the beauty and glory of God-

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Which He unveils to you, the power of His gospel, which makes all that God is available to all that you need.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because part of you needs to die and a part of you needs to go forth in glorious resurrection life day by day, spiritual resurrection with Jesus.

Paul Lawler: So good. So good. Al, as you share that, I’ve got a friend named John Riddle who uses an analogy of three valves.

Al Henson: Please share that with us then.

Paul Lawler: It’s like this flow of picture of being in the full presence of God. It’s a good image I think for having an unveiled face where Jesus said, “I’m living water,” and He refers to three valves of the heart. The first valve is confession of sin. First John tells us if we confess our sins, He’s faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Paul Lawler: You referenced the Gospel that even Paul’s spoke in I Corinthians, excuse me, in a Ephesians six, that our foundation is the Gospel. Even preaching the Gospel to yourself, remembering that He who knew no sin became our sin so that we would become the righteousness of God. And so we do come before God with unveiled face knowing that we’re justified, that we’re cleansed in Christ. We’re not condemned.

Paul Lawler: And I know there’s much more we could say about that, but the second valve we turn is dying to self. Because Lord, give me the grace today to choose for you and not myself.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: To live, for you, to move not in my preferences, but in Your purposes.

Al Henson: I like that. Give me the grace.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Because you can’t, you can’t die. You don’t have to. You just have to believe that. Be willing.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: And He will give you the grace.

Paul Lawler: Yes. That’s so good. And then the third valve we turn for the flow of living water is simply communing with Jesus. And so this image of an unveiled face, I can come before God. This veil can be removed. There’s thin space between us and God to delight in being in His presence.

Paul Lawler: But this first takes us somewhere, it doesn’t stop there. It says it’s unto something which is so beautiful. And these words that we’re being now transformed into the same image.

Al Henson: Amen. That’s the Romans eight.

Paul Lawler: Yes. From glory to glory. From this exposure to the glory of God. I think the Greek word there for some of our students or maybe pastors, doxa, the glory of God that we’re exposed to through the word of God, the spirit of God, presence of God, ministering in the name of Christ to the poor, the broken and the oppressed, and the lost.

Al Henson: Amen.

Paul Lawler: And we are transformed as as we walk with Him.

Al Henson: And let me make a closing comment and then we’ll pray Paul. Our listeners, but as you’re listening to this, my brother, my sister, just hunger for transformation. And the main thing that you’re hearing us say, get into the presence of God.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: The way you get in is through an unveiled face and in His presence you will be transformed. And think about that and consider that and let God help you to understand that. And we pray that you might, if God is using this to touch your heart, would you call?

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: A brother or sister and give them a link to this and have them listen in also.

Paul Lawler: Yes.

Al Henson: Jesus, we thank You so much for Your love for us and that You who have chosen… You’ve chosen us. And Your desire for us is to be sons and daughters just like Your own son. And You’ve made everything that we need in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for that to happen. And then You put us as we walk in obedience to You in the crucible of learning, growing and changing in transformation as we serve You and obey others and [inaudible 00:25:49].

Paul Lawler: Yes, God.

Al Henson: I pray You’d help each brother and sister listening in to be encouraged by faith to begin this kind of walk or strengthen this kind of walk with You in Jesus’ name, amen.

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Aaress Lawless: As we close this episode of SageTalk, I want to encourage you to allow God to do His transforming work in your heart and life. Now, we’d love to hear your thoughts or questions you might have about today’s episode. You can write to us at info@sagetalkpodcast.com. And if you would like to learn more about spiritual transformation, we’ve written a helpful resource you can download for free on our website at sagetalkpodcast.com.

Aaress Lawless: In our next episode, Al and Paul are going to introduce us to the concept of an unveiled face and how the presence of God can become real in your heart and life. Be sure to subscribe to SageTalk in your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss it. Come back soon and join us on SageTalk for another time of spiritual shepherding heart to heart and life to life.

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Compassionate Hope

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Aaress Lawless: As young men, Al Henson and Paul Lawler each found themselves asking, “Where are the spiritual fathers?” Unable to find someone to speak to them heart to heart and life to life, they purposed and one day become spiritual fathers themselves. Hi, my name is Aaress Lawless and welcome to Sage Talk. This episode is dedicated to helping you become a spiritual parent to those God has brought into your life. Now with over 75 years of pastoring between them, and decades of walking among the nations as a minister to the persecuted church and the least of these. Let’s join Al and Paul as they shepherd the hearts of faithful servants and Christian leaders in today’s edition of Sage Talk.

Paul Lawler: Hi, my name is Paul Lawler and I am with Al Henson, founder of the Compassionate Hope Foundation, and this is Sage Talk. Al, Sage Talk is a podcast that’s designed for the heart of God’s servants. Another way we might put that is, that these are conversations really intended to shepherd the heart of God’s servants.

Al Henson: Yes. Thank you Paul. And to this brother, sister that’s listing in, what God has put upon our hearts is to be a shepherd to those brothers and sisters that are hungry for the Lord. And to, in some ways, spiritually father them, spiritually mother them, and to the continuation of their spiritual growth. And a part of our hearts is that I remember … I’m 67 now. I’m an old man in some ways, even though in spirit and heart I feel like a young man. When I was in my twenties, I was a young man pursuing God in a very passionate, strong level. And I began to run across in scriptures spiritual fathers like Jesus who was perfect, and Paul, and others. And I remember crying out in my heart, where are the spiritual fathers?

Al Henson: I’m sure they were around, but the things that I was reading and studying, I couldn’t find that in my own life. And I had to find Christ for decades almost as enough. And wonder what my life could have been progressive like if I had have had someone older, maturer, full of faith, full of the spirit, full of the wisdom of God that could have helped guide and direct in my life. And I know Paul, you had had a similar kind of passionate heart as a young man.

Paul Lawler: Very much so. I was out of seminary in my early days of church planting and I too began crying out. In fact, I even approached persons that were farther along in the faith than I was and really wanted to be mentored. I longed to have someone father me, but at that stage in history that never came to fruition. I remember praying in my late twenties and early thirties that “Father, as I get older that if you’ll give me the grace to live into it, that I will pour into the next generation, I will encourage and seek to love and father those that come after me.”

Al Henson: And you know, Paul, I prayed a similar prayer and that was 40 years ago. And I certainly have no prideful thought that I am a spiritual father but many have said so. And I have felt that fatherly heart and part of the birthing of this podcast is coming out of that. A passion that in my life with my wife Susan, you are one of those. I don’t know, hundreds and hundreds that have come and stayed two days at our house and then we’ve built a relationship with. We’ve been married 46 years and we were discussing the other evening that there’s probably only been about two years of the 46 years that we’ve not had someone, that’s not including our children, living with us. That’s come to live with us for a week, or for months, or for a few months that we might truly spiritually father them heart on heart, life on life. And all through these years I said, “God please one day could you by your grace help me become a spiritual father.”

Paul Lawler: And you know, Al, as you, as you share that, I’m one of those whose life has been impacted by that sense, that place in your heart where you pour into others, you really do father others. And I’m mindful that while you may not carry that label for yourself, that others have said that about you and including myself on many occasions. If we could for a moment, why don’t we look at the scriptures at how this is actually reflected very clearly out of the heart of God.

Al Henson: Yeah, I think that it’d be great Paul. I’m going to let you start. I think we’re going to look at four or five passages and just read them or discuss them. But I’m thinking right now about that brother, sister that is listening in and I would encourage you in two kinds of ways as you’re listening in. One, perhaps you see a need to be spiritually fathered, or spiritually mothered. Then this podcast is for you. But you also would like to become a spiritual father and a spiritual mother. And I hope you do want to become that. God wants you to become that. That is the will of God for your life. And I hope that these podcasts will be a blessing to you in that process of your own growth and transformation towards spiritual father. So Paul, why don’t you jump in with a passage description? We’ll just go back and forth with a few verses of scripture here and just chat about those a bit.

Paul Lawler: Yeah, sounds excellent. Let’s start. 1 Corinthians 4:15, where the apostle Paul wrote, “For though you have countless gods in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ through the Gospel.” Now that is a spiritually paternal type of statement that reflects the heart in a unique way. Does it not?

Al Henson: Yes, absolutely. And Paul is basically saying here that you have many people to encourage you. You have many people that have helped you, but I was your spiritual father. And you have not many fathers. And Paul knew that fatherhood … And I think it would be important to state here that in my early years, in twenties and thirties, which was 45 years ago, the general thought was discipleship. Mentoring was a matter of classroom. And one of the things I learned is that you can’t disciple and mentor the masses. You don’t see that kind of thing taking place in scripture now. And I am in no way opposed to any kind of teaching and ministry of God’s word, whether it be in a classroom or large setting at all. All of those things are very helpful, but when we’re talking about when the scriptures and what Paul is speaking about in this passage, and spiritual fathering is a phrase that I coined 30 something years ago. Life on life. Heart to heart.

Al Henson: Another passage then is in 1 John in Chapter 2. The apostle John who was very close to Jesus, I think perhaps the closest of all the disciples of the Lord Jesus. And perhaps when you look at the apostle John, he very well … The others were probably 30 years old and more, because of the Jewish culture. To be respected you had to be older. And so Jesus called Peter and James and others to him that were 30. More than likely, John, if you research the age, he could have been a 16, 17, 18 year old young man. Especially when you think about the writing of the book of Revelation and the number of years between that and the crucifixion of Jesus. Had he been 18 he would’ve been 80 something by the time he wrote the book of Revelation. So I think in some ways, John may have been, in the heart kind of way, like a son to Jesus.

Paul Lawler: Yes, yes.

Al Henson: And then John writes the book of John. Then he writes 1, 2, 3 John, and he’s used of God to write the book of Revelation. But in 1 John, in Chapter 1 and 2, the apostle John lays out a spiritual progression. A spiritual development. He doesn’t use the word baby. Paul will use the word baby in Christ in 1 Corinthians, but John in 1 John 2 will mention the child, spiritual children, little children. Then he’ll mention the young man speaking, and he’s taking physical to describe spiritual. The young man would be like a spiritual teenager. And then he goes beyond that and speaks about spiritual fathers. And it’s interesting that with the spiritual children, John is saying how you cease to be a baby in Christ and begin to become a spiritual child, is that you walk in the light. You become a vulnerable person, openhearted and you begin to be transparent and you really walk in the light with God, and with others and you’re willing easily to confess sin.

Al Henson: Then moving from a child to a young man is all around your love and hunger for the word of God and studying. And it says this young man and the word of God abides in him. He’s learning. So if you begin to think about this, most of the church in America may still be in babyhood, or at best in spiritual child. But how many people have you met in the kingdom, Paul, that actually walk in humility and integrity that they’re open and honest about their need of God? They feel it deeply. And that’s necessary to move from a baby to a young child.

Paul Lawler: Yes. Yeah, we need more of this. Keep going.

Al Henson: But the spiritual fatherhood that we’re talking about, he says the spiritual father has known him, that is, from the beginning. And if I might share just a word of testimony of what I was surrendering my life to the Lord, I say … I didn’t use the word surrender. I actually said, “God, tonight I want Al Henson dead. The old Al. And I want you to raise up the new Al in you to live the walk.” And I was thinking, “What do I want to write down as the purpose for my life?” And I thought all about many things being a pastor, or planting churches, or making disciples, or fulfilling the great commandment to love God and all … And finally I got down, “Oh, that’s it. My purpose of my life is I need to love God.”

Al Henson: And I remember that night that the Holy spirit asking me, “Okay, now how are you going to do that?” And I remember thinking, “I can’t. I want to, it sounds like that would be a good purpose for a man’s life to love God.” And then the Lord led me to Philippians 3, Paul’s writing when he says that I may know him. I count everything else, but done and I said, “Oh, that’s it. God.” If I can know you, if you’ll let me find you, then I can love you.

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: And then later I was reading in this 1 John 2, and it says that a spiritual father has known him. That is from the beginning.

Paul Lawler: That’s good. Yes.

Al Henson: And so at 21 that began to put me on a path to spiritual fatherhood. And the word known there is experiential. It’s not head knowledge. It’s not theological knowledge. It’s not doctrinal knowledge. And through the word of God and through our circumstances in the life we’re living is our classroom. This is where God is teaching us. We’re growing and walking with God through life. As I pursued to know him, really wanted to know him, just know him. God began to reveal himself to me. And I think this knowing him means that we can experience in a deep, deep level, on a regular basis the thoughts of God and the heart of God.

Al Henson: And this is what characterizes a spiritual father, that this brother, this sister … When we’re talking about spiritual fatherhood, we’re not talking about the male only.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: We’re talking about a spiritual motherhood in essence. And a so you sisters that are listening in God wants you to be a spiritual mother, a godly woman. And a godly woman will be that woman that has known him experientially when she speaks of God, you know that woman knows God.

Paul Lawler: That’s right.

Al Henson: She doesn’t know about God, she knows God.

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: And I wanted God to help me. I wanted to become a man who just didn’t know about God, that knew God because I knew God was beautiful, perfect, pure, almighty.

Paul Lawler: Worthy of knowing, yeah.

Al Henson: Yes. And I wanted to be able to like a lover, I wanted to be able to talk to people about God and help them to see God, and know God. And that’s what a spiritual father is. I might say this, I was running in some discipleship circles at 25 years old and 26 years old and I didn’t say much. When you’re a young man, you just keep your mouth shut and grow and learn. And there’s wisdom in that. But I remember them saying, “Oh, if you’ve led to Christ now you’re a spiritual father.” And I thought in essence they’re right in this sense, by God’s grace, you’ve helped birth someone. And you need to, like an older brother or someone that’s maybe a little further along, help them along the way. You certainly don’t want to lead someone to Christ and not help them along the way.

Al Henson: But even then I was thinking, “No, they’re not … Don’t declare them a spiritual father.”

Paul Lawler: That’s right. Yes.

Al Henson: Because it’s not what the Bible is speaking about, when it talks of Paul as a spiritual father, or John as a spiritual father.

Paul Lawler: I think that’s so important. Everything that you’ve shared, but that last bit that you just shared Al, particularly around what is a spiritual father. The Bible has so much more to say around this topic. This topic pops up, or shows up, in the book of Malachi. In Malachi, in the word there in Chapter 4:6, the scripture gives this description of the latter times. It says, “And God, and he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers.” Now I recognize that may not be speaking specifically to spiritual fathering, spiritual mothering, but it reflects that this matter is important to God.

Al Henson: Yes. Well, God is a father. He’s a son, he’s a spirit, but he’s also the father. And even in we’re praying “Our Father who art in Heaven.” And Jesus wanted us to know God as father, so we could trust him. And if Christ is in us, and working through us, then he wants to work through us to that we feel to others as spiritual fathers, as spiritual mothers. Obviously, another passage of Paul would be … I’d like to just use Jesus as an example. He’s obviously the perfect one in this, and we’re so imperfect. But in Mark, in Chapter 3:14, Jesus is calling his disciples. He’s choosing his disciples.

Al Henson: And I love this in what he says. He says, “And he went to the mountain to pray.” And I would like to say to anyone, if you want to spiritually father someone, spiritually mother someone, start with prayer. And trust God to lead the right people to you. But he was praying and then after he prayed, it says, “He called to him those he himself wanted.” I love that.

Paul Lawler: That’s powerful.

Al Henson: God wants us. 10,000 times more than we want to love God, or think about loving God. He loves us and he wants us. And in my twenties like, “Oh God wants Al. God really wants me.” And I again asked, “What does he want from me? And I learned what he primarily wanted from me was my heart. And he wanted me to love him, but he says, “Those he himself wanted and they came to him that they might be with him.” And I’ve learned in spiritual fathering, I don’t go out and seek people to father.

Paul Lawler: Yeah. You don’t have to, do you?

Al Henson: No.

Paul Lawler: Yeah.

Al Henson: I have to say no often. I have this young man in Alaska just three or four months ago that I met, and within within 30, 40 minutes, he said, “Would you father me?” And I hadn’t talked about fatherhood. “Would you mentor me?” And I looked at him and I said to him, “I can’t say no, and I can’t say yes. But I can tell you that I will pray. And you have my phone number. And you can text me if you would like.” You see Jesus called those he himself wanted, and it says they came to him. One of the things I was seeing was with this young man, was he hungry enough that he would pursue? Would he go … He had had a lot of deep wounds in his life. Would he pursue fatherhood? Spiritual fatherhood.

Al Henson: Next thing I know every other day he’s saying, “Al, I’m just texting. I’m praying for you. If you have a few minutes, could we talk?” And finally know after a few weeks I knew he wanted to be with me. And so I set up a time to talk with him on the phone and now we’re doing that regularly. And Alaska’s a long ways away. This is the heart of a father. Where already I’m talking with the people around, is there a way we could set up some kind of Zoom, including him and maybe a few others where we could do some spiritual fathering. Because fatherhood, “Those who came then,” it says, “that they might be with him.” And this “with him,” It’s certainly more than a head to head.

Paul Lawler: Absolutely.

Al Henson: It’s heart to heart. And it’s life to life. Just a side note here, watching and observing in the kingdom, one of the problems that I see is because our culture is so dysfunctional now. And people have been so deeply wounded that when it comes to relationships, even husband and wife relationships, parent child relationships, people cannot connect at the heart level. And I actually believe Paul, that the majority of our people sitting in our church services on Sunday morning cannot connect with God-

Paul Lawler: … at a heart level.

Al Henson: … at a heart level. They’re connecting with God at a head level and not a heart level. And spiritual fathering allows a person to gain a grace place.

Paul Lawler: Yes, Lord.

Al Henson: A safe place. Those are the two words. A grace place and a safe place where they can … Like what we said about the spiritual child for the first time they can become vulnerable, and feel safe. They can become open and feel safe. And ultimately in this passage then Paul, I know we need to move on, “He did this, that he might send them out from him.”

Paul Lawler: Amen.

Al Henson: That they themselves might then start mothering, and fathering, discipling and caring for others.

Paul Lawler: I know we just have a few more minutes, but there’s one more passage of scripture that comes to mind. We’re mindful that what you just stated, first so that they may be with Jesus, but also that he sent them out. I think about Paul’s spiritually fathering Timothy. And when we read the books of 1 and 2 Timothy, we see all of this imagery being played out of Paul continuing to pour into Timothy, and to encourage him as a spiritual father. But there’s also a key verse. Well, I think there are many key verses, but there’s one particular verse that stands out just in terms of what he’s instructing Timothy to do. It’s that verse that many of us know. 2 Timothy 2:2 “And what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust of faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” Would you share a comment or two on that?

Al Henson: Yeah. I’m thinking right now about the pastor listening in, or the spiritual leader listening in and they’re thinking about their impact of their life. And we’re always thinking about the crowd. I’m not opposed to that, and God’s not, there were crowds around Jesus at times. But Jesus had a ministry both to the multitude and had a ministry to the few. And I would ask that spiritual leader listening in, which would you say impacted the kingdom and eternity more, his ministry to the multitude, or his ministry to the few? The obvious answer is, is to the few. I’m 67, and when Susan and I looked back over our lives, we’ve preached to thousands around the world. We’ve pastored and shepherded churches. But when I look back, the real impact over these last 45 years have been the hundreds.

Al Henson: Now after 45 years, it’s not just 12, it’s hundreds and hundreds of those that we took the time to invite them into our lives and we stepped into theirs. Heart to heart, life to life, spirit to spirit with Jesus, with one another. Searching the scriptures, digging into our … Letting God dig with us into our own souls. That is where the fruit and the impact has come. And so now I love the idea Paul that we can do a podcast like this, with this purpose in mind of … And in some ways mothering and fathering some but encouraging others to be spiritual fathers and spiritual mothers.

Paul Lawler: Amen. You know, as you share that out, let’s just take a moment to, in that spirit, to encourage someone today, that to pray and to seek to mother or father someone in the Lord. Or maybe there’s someone listening that they need to be, have a spiritual father or spiritual mother and to be in that place where they are being mentored and molded and shaped. And I want to encourage those listening today that even what we share, just may they share it with others as well to encourage movement like this.

Al Henson: And just a sort of a teaser for next, we’re going to shift next podcast into transformation. Which this is truly what when you’re fathering, you’re looking for. It’s what God’s looking for in our lives that we might be conformed in the image of Jesus Christ, that we might be transformed into his likeness. So we’re going to talk about the desire of God the father, the desire of any spiritual father, spiritual mother is transformation in the life of those that they’re ministering to and walking around. Paul would you close us today then in prayer?

Paul Lawler: It would be an honor. Let’s pray together. So father, as we’ve had the opportunity today to look at your word together and share, Lord, around the benefits and the gifts of spiritual fathering, spiritual mothering, we recognize this comes out of the image of who you are.

Al Henson: Yes. Lord.

Paul Lawler: Lord, the word even tells us that when Paul went and served the church, that he was like a spiritual mother, in the context that when we gather among you like a nursing mother taking care of her own children as the scripture says in 1 Thessalonians. And so Lord it’s out of this imagery that we pray that you continue to do the indelible work of the development of hearts of fathers, heart of spiritual mothers in continuing to birth, nurture, develop the heart of people, your people, for your glory, and we pray this in the strong and eternal name of Jesus.

Aaress Lawless: I hope each one of you were able to echo Paul’s prayer, that God would grow us into spiritual parents. If this episode of Sage Talk spoke to your heart, we’d love to hear from you. Al and Paul welcome your thoughts and you can email us at info@sagetalkpodcast.com. In our next episode, Al and Paul will be sharing about the catalyst God uses to conform us into the image of Jesus Christ. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast so you don’t miss this insightful episode on spiritual transformation. You can also visit our website at sagetalkpodcast.com to find transcripts of each episode and links where you can share this podcast with your friends and family. Come back soon and join us on Sage Talk for another time of spiritual shepherding, heart to heart and life to life.

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